fertilizer looking to switch to a better fertilizer

styxhexnchilli said:
 
Thanks solid7. :thumbsup: Solid tips for a newbe. Can you PM me the link on that video.
 
I haven't seen it for a couple years.  Best thing to do, is Google search for "does chlorine kill beneficial bacteria".
 
Yes, there's going to be tons of claims that it does.  It might get tedious.  You're looking for something that has some substantive data, and not just claims.  How many?  Which ones?  Etc...
 
It's so easy to pass "knowledge" down by word of mouth, or by tribal succession.  For that reason, I always make it a point to believe none of what I hear, and half of what I see. ;)
 
solid7 said:
 
I haven't seen it for a couple years.  Best thing to do, is Google search for "does chlorine kill beneficial bacteria".
 
Yes, there's going to be tons of claims that it does.  It might get tedious.  You're looking for something that has some substantive data, and not just claims.  How many?  Which ones?  Etc...
 
It's so easy to pass "knowledge" down by word of mouth, or by tribal succession.  For that reason, I always make it a point to believe none of what I hear, and half of what I see. ;)
 
chlorine at the levels in tap water is bacteriostatic, in that it doesn't necessarily kill microbes it just keeps microbes in tap water from growing. i still wouldn't use chlorinated water to make compost tea or in soil-less media where you are using microbes. for chlorine to be inactivated in soil it needs to react with organic acids which may or not be present in a soil-less media or at enough of a concentration to inactivate chlorine.
 
thefish said:
 
chlorine at the levels in tap water is bacteriostatic, in that it doesn't necessarily kill microbes it just keeps microbes in tap water from growing. i still wouldn't use chlorinated water to make compost tea or in soil-less media where you are using microbes. for chlorine to be inactivated in soil it needs to react with organic acids which may or not be present in a soil-less media or at enough of a concentration to inactivate chlorine.
 
You mean like the humic and fulvic acids that are present in compost? ;)
 
It's a lot of worry for nothing.  Until somebody can quantify the amount, and show that it's a threat, I am very confident that it's not.  So confident, in fact, that I regularly make teas with tap water.  The idea that you can't make good teas from tap water is really just a lot of hooey from the militant organic crowd.

The link that I posted stated that chlorine and chloramine were only shown to kill ANY amount of bacteria in the first 1/2" of soil  After that, the bacteria were thriving. And, as was duly noted, the reproduction rate of microbes/bacteria is so explosive, that the effect almost completely negated any die-off.
 
It should also be noted that "organic acids" can be the by-product of any bacteria die-off.  So, even in a soilless media or in tea, the chlorine/chloramine is going to be eliminated/metabolised.
 
solid7 said:
 
It doesn't matter what form the nitrogen is in, if you're using an inorganic. 
really?   
 
in short, different form of N act differently in soil.  a combination of N forms is better than continued use of a single form.
 
lek said:
really?   
 
in short, different form of N act differently in soil.  a combination of N forms is better than continued use of a single form.
 
Dear lek,
 
I'm aware of 3 types of Nitrogen that are usable to plants, and 1 that is not.
 
Atmospheric nitrogen comprises ~ 78% of the air that we breathe.  Then there are nitrates, ammonium, and organic nitrogen.

I'm well aware that there are differences in how they are fixed and assimilated.  But that's really beyond the scope of this discussion.  Obviously, the person who posted that fertilizer, posted something that was based on nitrates, given it's relative content.   Ammonium is not easy to obtain, and is typically reserved for large agriculture operations.  And the numbers were too high to be an organic source.

So, it's a nitrate based fertilizer.  And yes, it's great to mix sources.  But it will still work well for single season growing.  By the way, that's about 3-4 months on average, here in the states.
 
solid7 said:
 
You mean like the humic and fulvic acids that are present in compost? ;)
 
It's a lot of worry for nothing.  Until somebody can quantify the amount, and show that it's a threat, I am very confident that it's not.  So confident, in fact, that I regularly make teas with tap water.  The idea that you can't make good teas from tap water is really just a lot of hooey from the militant organic crowd.
The link that I posted stated that chlorine and chloramine were only shown to kill ANY amount of bacteria in the first 1/2" of soil  After that, the bacteria were thriving. And, as was duly noted, the reproduction rate of microbes/bacteria is so explosive, that the effect almost completely negated any die-off.
 
It should also be noted that "organic acids" can be the by-product of any bacteria die-off.  So, even in a soilless media or in tea, the chlorine/chloramine is going to be eliminated/metabolised.
 
I don't think anything in my post disagrees with what you said. I mentioned that I wouldn't make teas or use chlorinated water in soil-less media where you might have a less resilient rhisozphere and you are dismissing these suggestions broadly by applying a single "experiment".  I spend a significant amount of time at my job working as a microbiologist and I also have worked on isolating bacterial samples from environmental samples so I have a little background that might help you understand where I'm coming from. What I'm saying has nothing to do with being militantly pro-organic and has everything to do with good scientific practice in certain instances. Making a compost tea with chloramine and chlorine is bad practice.
 
You seem to give good advice on the forum in general but you're kind-of talking out of your ass when it comes to your understanding of bacteria and microbes here. Chlorine and chloramines will have differential effects from microbe to microbe based on concentration in the water and the physical biology of the organisms. Now here is where my background in this area comes in: a principle element in the isolation of microbes involves using chemicals that have differential effects on bacteria to make it easier to isolate from a species rich sample. Just like I use antibiotics and bacteriostatic compounds to alter the growth of the off target bacteria I don't want to isolate in the lab chlorine and chloramine will have a variable effect on all organisms in the tea that ranges from doing nothing to killing an organism.
 
Here is a example of how addition of bacterial inhibiting substances would play out in a compost tea: Two solutions of molasses one made with chlorinated tap water and one with dechlorinated are inoculated Yeast A, Bacteria B, Bacteria C and Fungi D.
 
Condition A (chlorine remains in tap water prior to inoculation):
Yeast A is unaffected by chlorine and begins to reach logarithmic growth after its initial adaptation period to the molasses.
Bacteria B is somewhat inhibited by the chlorine and takes 2 hours longer than typical to reach logarithmic growth.
Bacteria C isn't inhibted at all and takes a normal amount of time to adapt to the sugar source and grow logarithmically.
Fungi D is physically damaged by the chlorine and while it wasn't going to grow on the molasses it has been rendered unable to colonize the rhizosphere.
 
Compost Tea A when ready contains a population breakdown of 60% of yeast A because it was allowed to dominate the sugar for longest, 30% Bacteria C because it was the next fastest to adapt to the food source, 10% Bacteria B because by the time it kicked into gear the sugar source was waning and also has an inactivated FungI D.
 
Condition B (chlorine is removed)
Yeast A is unaffected and begins to reach logarithmic growth after its initial adaptation period.
Bacteria B takes 2 hours adapt to the molasses and reach logarithmic growth 
Bacteria C takes 4 hours to adapt to the molasses and reach logarithmic growth
Fungi D does not grow yet remains stable in the tea.
 
Compost Tea B when ready contains a population break down of 40% Yeast A, 40% Bacteria B since it was the next fastest to adapt, 20% Bacteria C since by the time it had adapted to the molasses Yeast and and Bacteria B had eaten most of the sugar. The fungi is viable and able to colonize the rhizosphere.
 
Levels of cholorine and chloramines vary ALOT within (water treatment may have to increase chlorine in the water if contaminants are detected or depending on the time of year) and between water sources as well which makes your broad statement even more ridiculous. I hope the above example is a clear way of explaining why its not good scientific practice to use chlorinated water for teas. So anyone reading this please don't listen to Solid7s advice on making compost tea with chlorinated/chloraminated water.
 
this opinion never gets any love on this forum, but i'll always repeat it:
 
you can ignore "beneficial bacteria" with a time release fertilizer like osmocote plus.
 
as far as i'm concerned, the only real beneficial bacteria are nodulating nitrogen fixers in legumes, everything else just makes nitrogen available in the soil. you know what else makes nitrogen available in the soil? fertilizing with an available nitrogen...
 
@thefish - I actually have a lot of respect for that post, because too often, we hear things that cannot be qualified or quantified.  All that I have ever asked for to have a change of heart, is that the proper approach to the problem be taken.
 
You clearly do have access to higher level knowledge of this situation than I do.  This is an issue that dives a little deeper than just readily available concepts.
 
I would love to be able to bounce some questions off of you, if you don't mind being a resource.  I'm always working on different things...
 
Theres no science in what I'm about to say so take it with a grain of salt but I have a pool in my backyard and theres a certain area in the yard where all the run off from us and the dog getting in and out accumulates and all the plants in that area are thriving. I would never plant any vegetables there cuz of all the chemicals in pool water but the palm trees and the weeds dont seem to mind it one bit. A soil sample of that area would be interesting to see but as far as plant growth goes, they don't seem to mind it one bit. Again, not speaking from a scientific level like the previous posts but just an observation.
 
Gorizza said:
this opinion never gets any love on this forum, but i'll always repeat it:
 
you can ignore "beneficial bacteria" with a time release fertilizer like osmocote plus.
 
as far as i'm concerned, the only real beneficial bacteria are nodulating nitrogen fixers in legumes, everything else just makes nitrogen available in the soil. you know what else makes nitrogen available in the soil? fertilizing with an available nitrogen...
 
I'm not sure that I totally understand what you've said.
 
To be clear, I plant "organically", not because of some overarching idealism, or misplaced zealousness - but because my soil has literally zero tilth.  I absolutely want as much biodiversity as possible, not just to fix nitrogen, but to break down everything that I put into my soil, and then retain it, as long as possible. (also I have massive stores of not readily available sources of both calcium and phosphorus, which unless shown otherwise, I believe the microbes help with - so less fertilizer, less leaching, less pollution - ideal because I live near the ocean and a marine preserve)  My top dressing is laid down heavily, and that's twofold - yes, I get the benefit of nitrogen that goes into the breakdown of said mulch, and is later released.  But really, I need that mulch to also keep my soil cool.    Hot sand is plant death.
 
I'm not sure that all of the 'soil food web' info, is or isn't, psuedo-science.  But what I do know, is that when you're given sand to work with, it's a lot of work to make it useable.  I want every advantage that I can get.  I do find that later on in the season when gnarly strains of fungus show up in my soil, stuff seems to really take off, and water retention (without bogging) is less of an issue.  
 
Edmick said:
Theres no science in what I'm about to say so take it with a grain of salt but I have a pool in my backyard and theres a certain area in the yard where all the run off from us and the dog getting in and out accumulates and all the plants in that area are thriving. I would never plant any vegetables there cuz of all the chemicals in pool water but the palm trees and the weeds dont seem to mind it one bit. A soil sample of that area would be interesting to see but as far as plant growth goes, they don't seem to mind it one bit. Again, not speaking from a scientific level like the previous posts but just an observation.
 
Ha, I have the same thing going on.  Pool has had a leak for a long time, that I recently bypassed. (so bad, that when I shocked the pool, I could gather up hands full of soil that reaked of chlorine)  In the area it was leaking, I had some mad growth.  Mostly weeds, but damn, the growth.  :D
 
On a side note i let 3 peppers under lights go to hell. These 3 were one step away from the trash pile. They got nothing but water for weeks and very yellow. They lost most of their leaves.
 
I used the Alaska vegetable and tomato pellets. I only put a few pellets in each tiny peat pot. I also added a few to the water i keep downstairs. Small improvements were happening within just a couple days. They exploded with new growth and buds in about a week.
HE91CLC.jpg
 
Yeah i know but they also sell 33%-38% sulfuric for pools too. A friend has been using it for adjusting pH of his tap water. All his plants responded well to it.
 
ShowMeDaSauce said:
Yeah i know but they also sell 33%-38% sulfuric for pools too.
 
Maybe a regional thing, based on water chemistry? (or waste products of local industry?) I've never seen it around here.  
 
 
Anyway, now I'm curious where you were going with that...
 
The plants obviously liked something in the pool runoff whether it was simply the pH, unknown nutrient in the water or a combination. Maybe they just liked being watered more. Aquarium pH down solutions are typically sulfuric too.
 
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