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scovilles moruga scorpion new hottest in the world

1. The CPI publishes work functioning mainly to try to break records and not for scientific study, their research should not be considered to be a reliable estimate for mean SHU results on a large scale.

I am not saying you should doubt CPIs work at all...they are a great institution and probably the most in the know when it comes to chili's...

however, what I am saying is, as EM said, you have to have a hook...and the record breaker was it...

I, also a scientific type am trying to point out that the devil is in the details and the way it is written...notice it states, the "mean" for the orange hab but does NOT say the mean for the Bhut...it says it "possessed an extremely high level"...

and also as I said, I may not be remembering things right either...I am, after all, a child of the 60s and my memory isn't what it used to be....

you have not made any of us mad I don't think...I know you haven't made me mad...

and if you look at the testing done on the 5 samples, that is the first time I have ever seen the mean, high and low advertised anywhere...

2. The CPI stresses their plants and grows over many seasons to ensure the highest SHU test readings. It can be assumed that the test results of the Bhut Jolokia from the 2005 research paper are skewn high because of ideal growing conditions in that season.


stressing the chili's is a good way to increase the heat levels of the pods during their growth, but I don't know whether they stressed them on purpose or the New Mexico climate did it...and yes, heat, pod size, yield, all vary season to season depending on your weather...

3. The most recent test study that this thread describes uses samples from only five chilies. They were NOT tested in unison but each chili was tested separately for a total of only 25 data points. This is simply not a large enough sample to be an effective SHU reading.


I really miss what you are saying here...are you saying they ran a test on 25 pods one at a time? or combined all 25 for the test?...and I agree on the sample size being too small...sample of 40 with no huge deviations would be sufficient IMO...one huge deviation brings in another 20-40 samples...or about that...

4. This test study should be used for entertainment purposes only

not at all...it is indicative of what heat you can expect from a chili but there is always that +/- shu's you need to consider...

IMO it would be cost prohibitive to test 25 samples of each variety...the HPLC test is not cheap...

as far as testing goes...independant labs perform HPLC for the industry...and I am not sure each lab performs the test identically...and you know as well as I do...any small change in a procedure can result in huge disparities between the answers...



EDIT:

I stand corrected...the number used by CPI for the Bhut Jolokia was in fact a mean...this comes from one of the researchers that was involved with the Bhut study...

I was just told that Guiness wants the spike and for their purposes and world record evaluation, the spike would be used,

however, for use in the industry...making pepper sprays, large scale sauce makers, etc. the mean would be used...

Guiness vs the real truth...
 
To clarify AJ, if you can see underneath the table on the picture OP posted, it says that each data point was from one pod and each variety had 5 data points. So 25 pods were tested, but 25 tests were done so each test had only one pod in it (five pods from each strain for five strains). I saw it on another site that had the same picture blown up, I'm not sure if you can see it here.

I would say that with only 5 pods tested from each variety that we can't effectively use data that is this bunched together. With a standard deviation that high in a laboratory I would get grilled hard for publishing those results, which might be why they don't have this published in a scientific paper yet. The high for the TSMB was almost FOUR TIMES the low, and with only five pods tested and five samples, that's just not reliable at all. You can't say that those results are even within a 10% margin of error, and since the lowest tested variety is within that 10% margin of error, you might as well throw the whole thing out if you're trying to test for the 'hottest variety' of the five. You just need more data, that's all.

I think the original Bhut Jolokia paper was much more accurate of a test result. The new testing seen here should be used as an interesting benchmark, but not a scientific analysis of the ranking of those five peppers. It gives you a good overall picture of the heat going on here, but I don't think you can reliably say which strain is the hottest of the lot without making a big leap of faith. I mean just look at how close the top two means are.

Thanks AJ and Potawie for your help and clarification. I just love reading these kind of papers and I'm trying to figure out exactly how I should take all of this data in, and now that I have a little more information it's been a huge help. I hope I've helped everyone else look at this in a different light and understand the results a bit better.
 
AlabamaJack said:
Guiness vs the real truth...
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Or just two different truths...

We ran into this all the TIME in the performance auto industry. Manufacturers would do everything they could to milk that ideal 0-60 time out of a sports car, or the highest horsepower number. They used brake horsepower and not wheel horsepower. They obviously used pro drivers for testing, in ideal conditions and sometimes even provided ringer cars.

It was rare that results were repeatable, but sometimes they were.

And lately, manufacturers have taken to UNDER estimating WHP numbers so as a) not to be sued (ask Mazda how that turned out...twice) and to b) get a "bump" in the press when the first examples come off the dynos. And sometimes we had drivers OUTperform the numbers from the factory or magazines, because, well, they were badass drivers. But anyway, there's bench racing, bench pepper eating, and then there's the real thing. :D
 
It is important to recognize that this photo is not of a peer reviewed publication but instead a conference poster. This doesn't mean that the results are wrong, it just means that they have not yet been critically evaluated by experts in the scientific methods used. As a scientist, I am a little surprised by the precision of the values quoted i.e. to 6 or 7 significant figures, and the lack of error estimates.
 
understand totally...frame of reference is what you have to pay attention to...

hey mrz...check out the thread I started on theory on stingered pods...would love to hear your opinion...

http://www.thehotpep...__fromsearch__1

@Aussie...I think they just let the numbers the instruments displayed and didn't round off...as an engineer working in the military aerospace industry, my boss would have fried me if I had reported something like this...specific data points should only be used in calculations IMO...and when they are discussed they should be discussed with limits applied...like 800K +/- 50K or something more statistically correct...but then again, marketing wants exact numbers and report (usually) the highest value attained...
 
I don't know what all the fuss is about. I had mine test in at 2,237,400. Just didn't think it was of importance....who needs a record anyway. Oh wait...we'renot talking about our bodies. My bad...carry on.
 
For scientific laws and such- seek the Chillihunter on here- he'll know the exact testing methods, laws and procedures. I think, that it's a bonus for Jim and congrats to him, if proved correct. However, is the validity of this research that important to the other party? Do the Ozzie boys care? Do the Ozzies care, well , there is the competitive spirit of the antipodean plus French. My gut, is they'll bring out the Dragons from Game of Thrones. They'll break 'em out to heat up the seeds and by next year, it'll then be a billion. In 5 years, should be 10 billion and then all of us will be buggered, cos it'll mutate through DNA manipulation of Mokeysando, and will eat us.I think, like others, aren't supposed to be enjoying the taste? Heat, who will eat these things?It's basically a short-term sales winner. " I've got the hottest, buy my seeds, pods, powder, blah de blah". I think Mr Duffy and Neil have far more common sense and dignity not to be so fixated about such things. They have good names, great businesses, have a friendly rivalry I suppose, good luck to them. Hell, I'm gonna enter my 3m (scu tvu) Tomato- Jalapeño- Brazilian- Linda Lovelace cross. Sorry lads, just being silly.
 
There is actually an American Spice Trade Association that has official analytical methods. Does anyone have access to this? It would be interesting to see just how specific ASTA Method 21.3 is.
 
AlabamaJack said:
in the real world, it's kinda like whoever grows the hottest pepper in the world makes the most money off of those that don't know what the hell they are buying...
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That is EXACTLY what I was waiting for someone to say! Its all about marketing folks...How many of you would be growing butch t's if they weren't "the hottest pepper in the world"? From what I've read, and heard from people that have eaten them they don't taste all that great. It's a seed war and its all about the $$$. I'm surprised the seed forum isn't already blowing up with folks looking to trade for or buy Moruga's. It won't be long...

Anyone got any seeds? lol
 
Aussie said:
It is important to recognize that this photo is not of a peer reviewed publication but instead a conference poster.
Click to expand...

Exactly. I'd expect this to be followed up with a peer-reviewed journal publication at some point in which some of the issues raised in this thread will be clarified. I don't really see much wrong with the poster as it is, except for the significant digits thing. They're not claiming every MS will be the hottest, just that one they tested came in with the highest level ever measured for a chile pepper. Assuming their testing methods are validated and instruments calibrated...

Bootsieb said:
...they'll bring out the Dragons from Game of Thrones. They'll break 'em out to heat up the seeds and by next year, it'll then be a billion. In 5 years, should be 10 billion and then all of us will be buggered, cos it'll mutate through DNA manipulation of Mokeysando, and will eat us.
Click to expand...
LOL. Well, since pure cap. is only 16 million, maybe not. Unless the dragon fire converts capsaicin to resiniferatoxin. :fire:

orangehero said:
There is actually an American Spice Trade Association that has official analytical methods. Does anyone have access to this? It would be interesting to see just how specific ASTA Method 21.3 is.
Click to expand...

Thanks for reminding me I need to get this. I have an older version (1996) of AOAC Official Method 995.03 (can't post due to ©) which since 1999 coincides with ASTA Method 21.3. The version I have is very specific, four pages of detailed laboratory procedure and calculation. It's been posted elsewhere on this forum, but this seems relevant here, too.
 
Ooh can i join the heated debate?

If memebers all sent in there superhots from around the world, then pulp each category & take an average SCH from each categrory (bit like a poll) but using the real thing.

Have it all tested & then post up at top 50 hottest peppers for 2012 (on average) as grown & tested by THP forum members.

Guinness shmuiness, thats a drink where i come from not a record. :beer:


Mezo.
 
Here's another thought: when it comes to records, do they necessarily need to be repeatable? Isn't that the idea of a record? I mean, if you run the fastest time in the 100m sprint at the Olympics you aren't required to have run that time before - or ever again. But you still hold that record until it is beaten.

As long as you run the race under specified conditions, then the record is recorded.

Who knows which runner ran the fastest most consistently over the course of his career? Probably not many people. But the record holder is recorded for all time - even if it is broken at a later date.

In the end, yeah, records are all just about marketing. The rest of it is for the hardcore fanatics to argue about...in my opinion...anyway... :drunk:
 
I got nothing useful to add but i do have a question. One that relates to other chilli varieties as well. So the TSMB is a scorpion variety right? Coming from some landrace Scorpion strain? And people here have said it is the same as a brain strain. But isnt the brain strain a 7 pot? And isnt the 7 pot a different landrace strain? Im just wondering. trying to peice it all together just for the sake of my clarity.
 
I could sort of understand the marketing if someone created a cross, but taking known stable varieties sent by forum members and having them tested to gain the Guinness record doesn't really seem fair to those who did most of the work. Just like when NMSU got the record for the bhut and then all of a sudden Paul Bolsand "created" the bhut according to most published articles :( What about the people in India who grew it for hundreds of years, are they not people too!!! It just sounds like we're going in complete cirlces year after year.
 
Beehunter said:
I got nothing useful to add but i do have a question. One that relates to other chilli varieties as well. So the TSMB is a scorpion variety right? Coming from some landrace Scorpion strain? And people here have said it is the same as a brain strain. But isnt the brain strain a 7 pot? And isnt the 7 pot a different landrace strain? Im just wondering. trying to peice it all together just for the sake of my clarity.
Click to expand...

look here

http://www.pepperfriends.com/forum/topic/2396-proposta-classificazione-varieta-di-trinidad/

(2009)
 
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