Anyone here use "Grow Lights" to get your plants over the winter while indoors? If so what advice do you have for me?
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lighting Grow Lights?
- Thread starter Pepper Belly
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) just like you would a young plant.If all you want to do is to save them, not grow them (Overwinter), AFAIK, you don't need much light, if any. If you are looking to have them keep producing, there have been hundreds of posts about different types of lights and lighting (I've probably put up a couple hundred of them!) so a search should turn up toms of opinions. Regardless what type of light (fluro, HID, LED or something else), the most important thing is lumens (or lux). It takes a significant amount of light for plants to produce pods that will ripen. For the initial cost, cost to operate and efficacy, I like the 23 watt CFL bulbs. They don't put out a lot of heat, are fairly bright especially if you use several of them, and do not cost much to operate, especially compared to an 600-1000 watt HID. I don't like them for seedlings as much as LEDs because it either takes a lot more watering if one keeps the plants close enough to minimize legginess or if I keep the lights further away, they get leggy.
Mike
I'm sure others have different opinions.
Mike
I'm sure others have different opinions.
BrokenSea,
Well, lux is perobably a better term because it measures the amount of lumens reaching the plant. But to confuse you a bit, plants use mostly red and blue light [Blue light wave length: 465nm; Red light wave length: 650nm]. They also use more of the red than the blue, that's why a lot of LED grow lights are about 3:1 red to blue bulbs ratio.
IM(not so humble!)O, any person seriously concerned about grow lights has to bookmark this site http://www.greenpinelane.com. The guy tests the more expensive lights, ones some of us drool over, but his info is unbiased and complete. Another good read is at http://superiorgrowers.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=47&Itemid=64
If you are wealthy, you could try one of the T1 SmartLamps with the optional dial that allows you to mix the colors of light. But I think the cost is about $1,500.
Mike
Well, lux is perobably a better term because it measures the amount of lumens reaching the plant. But to confuse you a bit, plants use mostly red and blue light [Blue light wave length: 465nm; Red light wave length: 650nm]. They also use more of the red than the blue, that's why a lot of LED grow lights are about 3:1 red to blue bulbs ratio.
IM(not so humble!)O, any person seriously concerned about grow lights has to bookmark this site http://www.greenpinelane.com. The guy tests the more expensive lights, ones some of us drool over, but his info is unbiased and complete. Another good read is at http://superiorgrowers.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=47&Itemid=64
If you are wealthy, you could try one of the T1 SmartLamps with the optional dial that allows you to mix the colors of light. But I think the cost is about $1,500.
Mike
I just paid $800 AUD for a 90W LED light, which will have blue, 2 types of red (630nm and 660nm) and white LED's. The exchange rate for AUD to USD is quite bad at the moment, hence the $800.
I currently used a 130w CFL with 12000K for seedlings, then when they get too big they get moved to a 600W HPS (this is where the LED light will be). Most of my plants will be outside, but 6 - 8 of the plants that cant survive our winter here in Melbourne will be moved permanently into the grow tent I'm using.
So yes, grow lights work, just have to work out your budget and then go from there.
I currently used a 130w CFL with 12000K for seedlings, then when they get too big they get moved to a 600W HPS (this is where the LED light will be). Most of my plants will be outside, but 6 - 8 of the plants that cant survive our winter here in Melbourne will be moved permanently into the grow tent I'm using.
So yes, grow lights work, just have to work out your budget and then go from there.
NatGreenMeds
Banned
Lumens per/watt of electricity
Fluorescent
5–24 W compact fluorescent 45–60
T12 tube with magnetic ballast 60
T8 tube with electronic ballast 80–100
T5 tube 70–100
LED
White LED 10–90
White OLED 102
Prototype LEDs up to 150
HID
high pressure sodium lamp 150
Metal halide 65–115
When the purchase cost of plant ready lights is also factored in, the HPS, (High Pressure Sodium), lights are considered by most to be the most cost effective way to provide indoor lighting to plants.
This information can be verified via email to any large manufacturer of lights; ie: Sylvania, GE. Make sure if you do email them that you mention:
1. Must be ready to use.
2. Must be a light that is good for plants.
3. Must either have a remote ballast or not produce unacceptable amounts of heat.
I've seen many comparative charts for indoor plant lighting over the years. HPS has been the winner on each, in terms of overall costs to purchase and operate.
Fluorescent
5–24 W compact fluorescent 45–60
T12 tube with magnetic ballast 60
T8 tube with electronic ballast 80–100
T5 tube 70–100
LED
White LED 10–90
White OLED 102
Prototype LEDs up to 150
HID
high pressure sodium lamp 150
Metal halide 65–115
When the purchase cost of plant ready lights is also factored in, the HPS, (High Pressure Sodium), lights are considered by most to be the most cost effective way to provide indoor lighting to plants.
This information can be verified via email to any large manufacturer of lights; ie: Sylvania, GE. Make sure if you do email them that you mention:
1. Must be ready to use.
2. Must be a light that is good for plants.
3. Must either have a remote ballast or not produce unacceptable amounts of heat.
I've seen many comparative charts for indoor plant lighting over the years. HPS has been the winner on each, in terms of overall costs to purchase and operate.
NatGreenMeds
Banned
In reference to my last post, I should explain a few more things.
In theory, (because it's not really possible), pure lumens per/watt reach 683 lumens per/watt.
The exchange of watts to lumens involves two very basic physical results:
1. Light in lumens
2. Heat
In every case in the list I provided, the amount of lumens is less than 683 lumens per/watt. There is no such thing as "Lost" energy. For every lumen that is below the perfect exchange of 683 per/watt, the remaining wattage results in heat. The higher the lumen count per/watt, the less heat results per/watt of electricity.
In turn, the less lumens per/watt results in more heat per/watt of electricity. That heat has to be dealt with in an indoor growing operation.
One manner of dealing with the heat is to only grow during the cold winter months. Then, by building a simple venting system from the grow area to the rest of a home, the grow room area heat can be used to supplement the paid/for heating that is commonly used during those same months. This won't lower your over-all electric costs, but it will make use of the heat produced by the grow area lights.
In theory, (because it's not really possible), pure lumens per/watt reach 683 lumens per/watt.
The exchange of watts to lumens involves two very basic physical results:
1. Light in lumens
2. Heat
In every case in the list I provided, the amount of lumens is less than 683 lumens per/watt. There is no such thing as "Lost" energy. For every lumen that is below the perfect exchange of 683 per/watt, the remaining wattage results in heat. The higher the lumen count per/watt, the less heat results per/watt of electricity.
In turn, the less lumens per/watt results in more heat per/watt of electricity. That heat has to be dealt with in an indoor growing operation.
One manner of dealing with the heat is to only grow during the cold winter months. Then, by building a simple venting system from the grow area to the rest of a home, the grow room area heat can be used to supplement the paid/for heating that is commonly used during those same months. This won't lower your over-all electric costs, but it will make use of the heat produced by the grow area lights.
Nat,
Ah, but what about "wasted" lumens, the spectrum that is produced by the bulb that has little or no effect on photosynthesis? The best measurement is PAR (photosynthetic active radiation) Lumens per watt.
Also, I've read several articles that when the life and replacement cost of the bulb is figured into the rating, the LEDs are the best value. Once their costs drops, and it will, there won't be any competition.
Mike
Ah, but what about "wasted" lumens, the spectrum that is produced by the bulb that has little or no effect on photosynthesis? The best measurement is PAR (photosynthetic active radiation) Lumens per watt.
Also, I've read several articles that when the life and replacement cost of the bulb is figured into the rating, the LEDs are the best value. Once their costs drops, and it will, there won't be any competition.
Mike
NatGreenMeds
Banned
I agree that when LED prices come down in a few more years to a practical price range, they will be the best for any inside grow. For now, HPS holds the lead.wordwiz said:
Many people think that CFL's are a bargain, or are the least expensive method of lighting plants indoors. The stats I posted show clearly that they are not.
The PAR ratings for each bulb produced aren't available industry wide yet. That's why I don't try to equate them into the values I posted.
Nat,
A lot depends on what the lights are used for. If I'm trying to grow a Green Sausage tomato or a single Bhut pepper, the HPS is no where the most cost-effective. I'm far from sold they are even if one is growing some plants hydroponically.
You can't just figure lumens per watt as the definitive measure of which light is the best. The initial cost of lamp, replacement bulb cost, life of the bulbs, cost to run it, all these things count if one is going to invest is an expensive lighting system. In today's market, given the cost of electricity, the only reasonable purchase is a high-power LED lamp. They last far longer, not bulb replacement costs, lower electricity bills, better results when it comes to producing fruits.
JMO, of course,
Mike
A lot depends on what the lights are used for. If I'm trying to grow a Green Sausage tomato or a single Bhut pepper, the HPS is no where the most cost-effective. I'm far from sold they are even if one is growing some plants hydroponically.
You can't just figure lumens per watt as the definitive measure of which light is the best. The initial cost of lamp, replacement bulb cost, life of the bulbs, cost to run it, all these things count if one is going to invest is an expensive lighting system. In today's market, given the cost of electricity, the only reasonable purchase is a high-power LED lamp. They last far longer, not bulb replacement costs, lower electricity bills, better results when it comes to producing fruits.
JMO, of course,
Mike
Nat,
(Not) just for you. My season ended today - all the peppers were trimmed back to their nubs and the ones I wan to overwinter were broght inside. But I have a Holy Mole plant that has about 10 pods on it, ranging from an inch or two long to about five inches, plus about 10 blooms. I stuck it under a couple of CFL bulbs, one a 13-watt, the other a 23. The plant's canopy is about 15" (poor year but 2.25 sq. ft.) and the lights are about 10" above it. The lux varies from 4500 to 5400 depending on where the light meter is held. There is no reflective material on the walls. The plant is not real healthy, lots of yellow leaves due to the drought, end of the season, lack of ferts, non-attention byt the grower. It was watered very decently a week ago and received another 3/8" of rain Wednesday.
I'll let you know the results but if this plant will produce ripe pods from the blooms as well as produce new blooms... I would have to consider CFL bulbs that use 36 watts over a light that uses 600 watts!
Mike
(Not) just for you. My season ended today - all the peppers were trimmed back to their nubs and the ones I wan to overwinter were broght inside. But I have a Holy Mole plant that has about 10 pods on it, ranging from an inch or two long to about five inches, plus about 10 blooms. I stuck it under a couple of CFL bulbs, one a 13-watt, the other a 23. The plant's canopy is about 15" (poor year but 2.25 sq. ft.) and the lights are about 10" above it. The lux varies from 4500 to 5400 depending on where the light meter is held. There is no reflective material on the walls. The plant is not real healthy, lots of yellow leaves due to the drought, end of the season, lack of ferts, non-attention byt the grower. It was watered very decently a week ago and received another 3/8" of rain Wednesday.
I'll let you know the results but if this plant will produce ripe pods from the blooms as well as produce new blooms... I would have to consider CFL bulbs that use 36 watts over a light that uses 600 watts!
Mike
NatGreenMeds
Banned
Hey Mike, you're preaching to the choir. After more than 25 years of using hydroponics for indoor gardening, I've formed a lot of opinions myself. I understand where you're coming from and where you are in the learning curve of indoor gardening. I passed those points many years ago. Most of it is simple math, attention to detail and common sense.
Another very important facet of indoor lighting for growing is the speed at which types of plants grow. The transpiration rate relational to the plant type and stage of growth is a factor that has to be interwoven into the decisions made in regard to light type and usage.
As you touched on, using a high power light inappropriately is no more cost effective or using common sense than using a low power, low light method on a high transpiration, fast growing plant. All of these things are learned early on in any effort to grow indoors with artificial lighting.
Good luck to you in your projects. If there is anything I can help you with, just let me know.
Nat.
Another very important facet of indoor lighting for growing is the speed at which types of plants grow. The transpiration rate relational to the plant type and stage of growth is a factor that has to be interwoven into the decisions made in regard to light type and usage.
As you touched on, using a high power light inappropriately is no more cost effective or using common sense than using a low power, low light method on a high transpiration, fast growing plant. All of these things are learned early on in any effort to grow indoors with artificial lighting.
Good luck to you in your projects. If there is anything I can help you with, just let me know.
Nat.
Here's a link MilkMan gave me. http://www.livingapartment.com.au/Products/Salad-Greens-Under-Lights/LED-Grow-Lights-90W-300W-600W It has some nice, high power LED lights. The lux ratings are low, but look at the distance from the plants - 1.5 meters. Of course, lowering the lights increases the lux while decreasing the coverage area but I don't need to cover 140 sq. feet.
Now where did I let that $2,000 laying around at?!
Mike
Now where did I let that $2,000 laying around at?!
Mike
Some great Figures Nat and i agree at the moment L.E.D`S Are very expensive but the price will fall quickly as demand is now increasing and more company's produce kits for the home and commercial grower,At the heart of it all is the constant need for reliable and cheap lightning which will drive the market with higher and higher electricity costs,The other thing is to really plan well exactly what your going to grow and make sure the light coverage is enough over period of time to cover and grow the plants through there many stages of development,Lots of people usually underestimate the amount of light needed causing problems later on,Thats why nats tables are very useful indeed 
MiLK_MaN said:
Yeah, one reason LEDs don't register real high is because most light meters are mainly sensitive to the yellow/green spectrums. The last time I measured the lux under my 45 watt red/blue LED, it was about 6,000. By comparison, I think using the 23 watt CFL bulbs were about 30,000 and standard 40-watt shop lights were 1300.
Using a homemade spectrometer, the CFL lights show these approximate values of light:
Red - 29%
Yellow - 27%
Green - 25%
Blue - 17%
Violet - 5%
I know, it is more than 100 percent but there were rough measurements. Plus, I cannot break it down by wavelength so it the figures include all the "reddish" light, not just the 630 nm amount.
Mike
Like anything, the sky is the limit.
I don't see ever spending $ on anything but the cheap flourescent fixtures and the $8 "grow" bulbs at Lowe's.
They do just fine.
When overwintering, I am not looking for pod production, or too much vegetative growth. I want to keep them alive until spring.
I don't see ever spending $ on anything but the cheap flourescent fixtures and the $8 "grow" bulbs at Lowe's.
They do just fine.
When overwintering, I am not looking for pod production, or too much vegetative growth. I want to keep them alive until spring.
Cheezy,
I don't blame you. No need for expensive, high power lights if you aren't trying to get ripe pods or fruits.
For seedlings, I would have used CFL bulbs but I like the low power LEDs better for the plants they produce. I sowed six seeds that sprouted on the 29th and if this was May instead of October, they would be outside getting hardened off - they are about 8" tall.
Part of that might be because of much warmer temps than I would see in February and March, even upstairs (the room gets only ambient heat). I've started another groups of plants last Wednesday - that's when the first ones sprouted - to see if they take less than a month to get that tall. I don't want to start 800 seeds in February and not be able to move them outside when they get large enough because the temps are still in the teens or twenties.
Mike
I don't blame you. No need for expensive, high power lights if you aren't trying to get ripe pods or fruits.
For seedlings, I would have used CFL bulbs but I like the low power LEDs better for the plants they produce. I sowed six seeds that sprouted on the 29th and if this was May instead of October, they would be outside getting hardened off - they are about 8" tall.
Part of that might be because of much warmer temps than I would see in February and March, even upstairs (the room gets only ambient heat). I've started another groups of plants last Wednesday - that's when the first ones sprouted - to see if they take less than a month to get that tall. I don't want to start 800 seeds in February and not be able to move them outside when they get large enough because the temps are still in the teens or twenties.
Mike