Joe,
Are the Pucker Butt people the individuals you are working with ?
-- Mega
Are the Pucker Butt people the individuals you are working with ?
-- Mega
Promotion for HP22B
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No legal reasons maybe but you could argue grower integrity and ethical reasons should be more important then the legal side of things anyway??
Is there any reason then I couldn't just grow some Trinidad Scorpion from my saved seed stock call them 'Scorpion Venom'?? Not legally maybe but it doesn't make it right in any way shape or form does it??? By the way that name is now my copyright "Scorpion Venom" Another entry
midwestchilehead
Extreme Member
Now Butch, you are just being difficult 
Hey leave Joe alone! He can call it whatever he wants, after all once I got my hands on the Trinidad Scorpion and
knew it was the hottest thing out there, I renamed it the "Trinidad Scorpion" !
hmm, so I should probably do some searching on this, but can someone just give me a quick answer for this one.. Wasn't the TS Moruga strain measured at 2million, even though that was just one pepper in that testing and not the average or anything, but I guess that wasn't added into the Guinness Book?.. they just did the testing and left it at that? I would think that if they did do the testing, I don't see what is holing them back from entering for the most part..
I've just been trying to follow all this "discussion" that is going on here.. and I don't know any of the history or background on this to have an opinion on it, but I'm just unclear as to what the difference is for testing for the Guinness book rather than the testing done on the Moruga, besides the obvious of notifying Guinness and all their "people" and getting it validated and bla bla bla..
but I will just leave it at that, if someone could give me a heads up that would be cool, thanks.
I've just been trying to follow all this "discussion" that is going on here.. and I don't know any of the history or background on this to have an opinion on it, but I'm just unclear as to what the difference is for testing for the Guinness book rather than the testing done on the Moruga, besides the obvious of notifying Guinness and all their "people" and getting it validated and bla bla bla..
but I will just leave it at that, if someone could give me a heads up that would be cool, thanks.
I was done. I swear I was done. Joe I'm flattered you think I'm one of the good guys. I just don't wish anything bad on folks. I was sincere about the safe trip. I do not agree with what's gone on here though. If you remember my very first post I called you posting this thread a dick move. Still think of it like that. Allow me to explain. For the previous week or so prior to this thread the folks around here been talking and debating the TS Morouga Blend pepper and it breaking the two million SHU mark. Little heat in those discussions. Mainly about the origins of the TSMB. But that is where the focus of this site was. Then you come along and poo poo both the Blend and the Butch T being the hottest saying you know a new one that's going to blow them both away. That was, in my opinion, a dick move. You said you had nothing to go on but a growers word. So you get the place fired up, and believe me I could hear the old "any publicity is good publicity" mantra going and now here you are, getting closer to the payoff.
So, I honestly believe this entire thread was intended to start a bunch of crap. The point of it to get people fired up to try and find every little piece of information about this pepper, to argue, discuss, threaten. Publicity. This whole thing was nothing but a tease to get folks to want to buy these seeds. P.T. Barnum would be proud of you Joe.
Now I am done.
So, I honestly believe this entire thread was intended to start a bunch of crap. The point of it to get people fired up to try and find every little piece of information about this pepper, to argue, discuss, threaten. Publicity. This whole thing was nothing but a tease to get folks to want to buy these seeds. P.T. Barnum would be proud of you Joe.
Now I am done.
No legal reasons maybe but you could argue grower integrity and ethical reasons should be more important then the legal side of things anyway??
Is there any reason then I couldn't just grow some Trinidad Scorpion from my saved seed stock call them 'Scorpion Venom'?? Not legally maybe but it doesn't make it right in any way shape or form does it??? By the way that name is now my copyright "Scorpion Venom" Another entry
I agree with the ethics here but we don't know if HP22Bs are 7 Pot Primos. For all we know it tastes different and has a different heat level. It could be a strain of Primo that's hotter.
After following this thread and now hearing about the origin of this pepper I will chime in with my thoughts and some facts. First to clarify some things for Macksack331. Initial application was filed by NMSU for Moruga but will not be fully submitted until after peer review by Hort Science magazine and publishing by Hort Science magazine. This can take weeks or months as I have been told because these are scientists and don't just rush things along. I want to say that there are some very knowledgeable people on this forum. Some of you do have a science background and some of you do know your Botany. So lets look at the facts that surround this new pepper. First of all is it truly a new variety??? The answer is no. Now before you debate me on this let me define scientifically or Horticulturally what a new variety is. A new variety is stable and you can save seeds from it and grow it out year after year and get the same variety. It takes at least 7 generations or seasons to do this. Does not matter if it is Squash or Peppers. Primo who created the 7 Pot Primo now has a stable strain. The Habalokia which has been around a little while is stable. These guys say they have been working on this for 5 years. My guess is the first few years is playing around with crossing and then testing for heat. Then once you find out what you have you breed that for 7 generations. So the time period tells me there is no new strain. So why would anyone want seeds of something not yet true??
My second observation is this. Environment cannot make a new pepper. Maybe over thousands of years environment can affect genetics but not in a few years. The people involved in this project say they used certain techniques to stress the peppers. This will only afftect that particular season and will have no bearing on future seasons grown from future seeds. So why would anyone want seeds?? The Chile Pepper Institute grew their test plots with normal farming just like green chiles. True a New Mexico summer will be hotter than a Northeast summer so there will be higher ratings for peppers grown there. But at least there was no deliberate stress from a nutrient regimen. And if this hybrid pepper chemically stressed does got so hot just imagine using these guys stressing techniques on a Douglah? Moruga? or Butch T? How hot would they turn out?? Of course it behooves everyone involved in this South Carolina study to create a new pepper. Just like Frank Garcia you become exclusive and patent and Trademark and make as much as you can. I am not against making money but do these guys have a Primo and are they calling it something new so it can be their exclusive rights pepper?? I leave that up to all of you to think about. These guys say they have a higher mean average over 3 years. They say they are using stressing techniques. So all that is proven is that their stressing techniques gave them higher tests. Wake up everyone! It does not mean they have a hotter pepper. It just means they can make a pepper test rate hotter! Again stressing is not going to create a hotter pepper for future growing! But Joe and his friends know this and are hoping you dont look at these facts and spend your money. One more time folks stressing and environment will not genetically make a hotter pepper variety!!! Thats why the Institute does not do this. They grew in a clay field with limited nutrients. The Chile Pepper Institute is non profit. A graduate student ran this last study for his Thesis. Whether Guinness rubber stamps it I do not care. But at least the Moruga is a real variety and not a made up one. And at least it was grown like any other pepper. What I see is a well laid out plan by some businessman to make a lot of money off the unsuspecting General Public who wont know squat about Botany 101 or Scoville testing.
My second observation is this. Environment cannot make a new pepper. Maybe over thousands of years environment can affect genetics but not in a few years. The people involved in this project say they used certain techniques to stress the peppers. This will only afftect that particular season and will have no bearing on future seasons grown from future seeds. So why would anyone want seeds?? The Chile Pepper Institute grew their test plots with normal farming just like green chiles. True a New Mexico summer will be hotter than a Northeast summer so there will be higher ratings for peppers grown there. But at least there was no deliberate stress from a nutrient regimen. And if this hybrid pepper chemically stressed does got so hot just imagine using these guys stressing techniques on a Douglah? Moruga? or Butch T? How hot would they turn out?? Of course it behooves everyone involved in this South Carolina study to create a new pepper. Just like Frank Garcia you become exclusive and patent and Trademark and make as much as you can. I am not against making money but do these guys have a Primo and are they calling it something new so it can be their exclusive rights pepper?? I leave that up to all of you to think about. These guys say they have a higher mean average over 3 years. They say they are using stressing techniques. So all that is proven is that their stressing techniques gave them higher tests. Wake up everyone! It does not mean they have a hotter pepper. It just means they can make a pepper test rate hotter! Again stressing is not going to create a hotter pepper for future growing! But Joe and his friends know this and are hoping you dont look at these facts and spend your money. One more time folks stressing and environment will not genetically make a hotter pepper variety!!! Thats why the Institute does not do this. They grew in a clay field with limited nutrients. The Chile Pepper Institute is non profit. A graduate student ran this last study for his Thesis. Whether Guinness rubber stamps it I do not care. But at least the Moruga is a real variety and not a made up one. And at least it was grown like any other pepper. What I see is a well laid out plan by some businessman to make a lot of money off the unsuspecting General Public who wont know squat about Botany 101 or Scoville testing.
[Quote/]I am not against making money but do these guys have a Primo and are they calling it something new so it can be their exclusive rights pepper?? I leave that up to all of you to think about. These guys say they have a higher mean average over 3 years. They say they are using stressing techniques. So all that is proven is that their stressing techniques gave them higher tests. Wake up everyone! It does not mean they have a hotter pepper. It just means they can make a pepper test rate hotter![/Quote]
Hmmm is that not one of the most hypocritical statements of all time??
Hmmm is that not one of the most hypocritical statements of all time??
Not sure where the hypocrisy is actually?
"but in MY perception, of course the next Worlds Hottest Pepper doesn't have to be over 2 Mil. SHU.
Why would it have to top a one-off number?"
Where did you here this? Two samples tested over 2 mil so maybe you should check your facts.
I should also point out that the Primo is aparently an f7 which would only be 98.4% stable. F8s would be 99.2. I don't think its fair to call anything stable unless its at least 99% stable, and preferrably 99.9+%
Why would it have to top a one-off number?"
Where did you here this? Two samples tested over 2 mil so maybe you should check your facts.
I should also point out that the Primo is aparently an f7 which would only be 98.4% stable. F8s would be 99.2. I don't think its fair to call anything stable unless its at least 99% stable, and preferrably 99.9+%
Maybe Potawie about the 7 Pot Primo. I gotta say I get completely stable pods off it every year. Moreso than most Trinidad varieties, but I guess there is that 1.5% chance... It's awfully close to being there.
And then he sez:
I don't know about you guys, but given this information, it doesn't sound THAT far-fetched that Pepper Joe at least knows a guy that might challenge the record. All the other stuff about 6,000 varieties (most likely 1st generation hybrids, which is entirely doable in a short amount of time) and Chinese peppers sounds more like someone was playing "Chinese Whispers," a.k.a. "The Telephone Game."
DJ , Thank you...but PLEASE...it's 600 varieties, not 6,000.Let's not get them started again....
How ironic that that I fall victim to the telephone game in the exact sentence that I mention it, haha.
Notice how he mentions the Douglah and 7-pot, but not the Scorpion? It will be kind of disappointing if it turns out to be a Trinidad Scorpion cross that's been grown out for 3 years and renamed for marketing purposes. Kind of just wading into infinity chile and naga viper waters if that's the case. But that's all just speculation.
So...until we know the basic facts about this HP22B, such as its lineage, it's hard to have a meaningful discussion. Guess we'll just have to wait for the official press release to find out the nitty gritty.
I also agree that the way it was presented (going all "Area 51" on us) was a bit much. All that had to be done was a simple "Hey guys, heads up..." and a quick link to PuckerButt's website / facebook / youtube so we could explore for ourselves and not spend 16 pages of posts on speculation and getting certain folks riled up. I guess we still don't know for sure if the PuckerButt folks are the guys he is dealing with, but I have a hard time believing there are two groups of folks within driving distance of Myrtle Beach growing peppers and trying for a Guinness record.
Thanks Habanero500 for the explanation, I didn't realize there was that much debate and interest in the Moruga blend, I've only really looked at the study from the chili institute that MRZ posted on here (I just wish I had gone there so I could have done some work with peppers haha) And I wasn't sure where they were for the process of getting the Moruga in the books, if that is what they were actually going for, and it makes sense that most people I would say happen to just stumble on a pepper like that, do the testing then find out what they have, and then go from there.. especially doing it with a university or institute, its just the way things are generally.. but not always.. I can't wait to make some crosses this year and see how they turn out.. it would be a nice surprise when you see them for the first time!
I have a BS in bio so I get the science part about, and I can say that the guys publishing this and doing the testing is much more frustrated than anyone watching from the sidelines. And the pepper really does look like a cross of a brainstrain or whatever they made the brainstrain out of, with a T-scorp, to make it more compact like that.. (and I know it's not suppose to be crossed with the 7pot, but they are all kind of related anyways with all these crosses and strains going around, just might not be directly? I don't really know).. but anyways I guess we will find out. I'm more interested in what they crossed it with and their stress techniques than what the actual pepper is, or trying to get seeds from it or anything, I have too many peppers right now as it is, so maybe next year. 2 Years ago my peppers were much hotter than they were last summer, it also rained like crazy last summer which sucked, and I tend to stress my plants out unintentionally but it would be interesting to see if their yield is affected by their stressing and how they do it.
so yeah, thanks for the help explaining where some of this heat is coming from
oh and about the 7 pot primo, has it only been around for 7 years? or is it possible that with everyone growing them there could be areas/people with F8-9+ plants? without really growing over the winter and nonstop, unless you get seeds from AUS and then plant in the US and then ship seeds back to AUS.. that would speed things up a bit I guess lol
I have a BS in bio so I get the science part about, and I can say that the guys publishing this and doing the testing is much more frustrated than anyone watching from the sidelines. And the pepper really does look like a cross of a brainstrain or whatever they made the brainstrain out of, with a T-scorp, to make it more compact like that.. (and I know it's not suppose to be crossed with the 7pot, but they are all kind of related anyways with all these crosses and strains going around, just might not be directly? I don't really know).. but anyways I guess we will find out. I'm more interested in what they crossed it with and their stress techniques than what the actual pepper is, or trying to get seeds from it or anything, I have too many peppers right now as it is, so maybe next year. 2 Years ago my peppers were much hotter than they were last summer, it also rained like crazy last summer which sucked, and I tend to stress my plants out unintentionally but it would be interesting to see if their yield is affected by their stressing and how they do it.
so yeah, thanks for the help explaining where some of this heat is coming from
oh and about the 7 pot primo, has it only been around for 7 years? or is it possible that with everyone growing them there could be areas/people with F8-9+ plants? without really growing over the winter and nonstop, unless you get seeds from AUS and then plant in the US and then ship seeds back to AUS.. that would speed things up a bit I guess lol
I just find this hard to swallow. If they assembled a team 5 yrs ago then they cannot have a new variety. Because they would at least spend a few seasons crossing to get their potential hottest. Then upon finding that out go about making it stable. Unless of course there never was any crossing at all and they took an existing variety and used feeding techniques to stress it which does not create a new pepper at all. This sounds so much like the Naga Viper. Bosland's group submits all their stuff to other scientists for peer review. So I wonder if these guys would too. Then again if they did call this a new variety that would be false and it would not be submittable on that basis alone.
One other thing I find funny. These guys plan to release hot sauces with this new pepper to make lots of money. I find that hilarious. Why? Because I know most of the sucessful sauce makers and sucess in the sauce business is limited. Most everyone I know has a day job except Dave, Blair and CaJohn. So just because you have a gimmick ie Hottest Pepper you will not be catapulted to sucess. Sucess in the sauce business is many, many years of hard work. Lots of wholesale customers (CaJohn's business is 85% wholesale), and a product line that has great tasting products to get repeat sales. When the Bhut Jolokia got fame it did not make any individual sauce maker have great sucess. So any new pepper won't either. And calling your Company PuckerButt won't get you on mainsteam grocery shelves either. Having the Hottest pepper sauce does not do it all. Blair and Dave started with extract sauces in the beginning when people were looking for hotter than habanero. Now Blair makes so much money selling spicy snacks to the Asian market and Dave makes Gourmet cooking sauces and that is where they turned the corner. John has spent over 15 yrs to get where he is. And talking to him the other day He said if he knew going in it would be this hard he would not do it over again. I really don't see PuckerButt or Joe making even a small fortune with this so called hottest pepper. Just sayin......
One other thing I find funny. These guys plan to release hot sauces with this new pepper to make lots of money. I find that hilarious. Why? Because I know most of the sucessful sauce makers and sucess in the sauce business is limited. Most everyone I know has a day job except Dave, Blair and CaJohn. So just because you have a gimmick ie Hottest Pepper you will not be catapulted to sucess. Sucess in the sauce business is many, many years of hard work. Lots of wholesale customers (CaJohn's business is 85% wholesale), and a product line that has great tasting products to get repeat sales. When the Bhut Jolokia got fame it did not make any individual sauce maker have great sucess. So any new pepper won't either. And calling your Company PuckerButt won't get you on mainsteam grocery shelves either. Having the Hottest pepper sauce does not do it all. Blair and Dave started with extract sauces in the beginning when people were looking for hotter than habanero. Now Blair makes so much money selling spicy snacks to the Asian market and Dave makes Gourmet cooking sauces and that is where they turned the corner. John has spent over 15 yrs to get where he is. And talking to him the other day He said if he knew going in it would be this hard he would not do it over again. I really don't see PuckerButt or Joe making even a small fortune with this so called hottest pepper. Just sayin......
LMAO
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