• If you need help identifying a pepper, disease, or plant issue, please post in Identification.

Theory On Tailed or Stingered Pods

AlabamaJack

Extreme Member
For those who care about theories in growing capsicum plants, I have one about "tailed" pods... if you don't know the names of the parts of the flowers, look at a diagram while you read this...

I think everyone knows about the stamen and pistols...stamen has the ovary at its base and pistols that have "pollen" on them...the pollen is sperm and the ovary is an egg...

my theory is simple...the "annular ring" that is made by the base of the pistol attachment is stronger than "non-tailed" pods through genetic makeup (a specific gene) that makes that "annular ring" hold together around the base of the stamen causing the stricture in the lower part of the pod resulting in a "tail".....

anyone care to join this discussion and do you think it would be a good masters or PhD dissertation ? If so, I know a guy who knows a guy who knows a guy that knows...
 
So, to restate what I think you're saying..... It's like as the pod starts to form, the "annular ring" is still tight - kind of like if you really need to poop, and you're trying not to, but some comes out anyway - forming the "tail" or "stinger". Then the "annular ring" finally can't take it any more and breaks, effectively causing a "dump" to occur....... :rofl:

Is that it? Okay, I'm laughing at the analogy, but it's not entirely unreasonable....
 
So, to restate what I think you're saying..... It's like as the pod starts to form, the "annular ring" is still tight - kind of like if you really need to poop, and you're trying not to, but some comes out anyway - forming the "tail" or "stinger". Then the "annular ring" finally can't take it any more and breaks, effectively causing a "dump" to occur....... :rofl:

Is that it? Okay, I'm laughing at the analogy, but it's not entirely unreasonable....

Or if you're in the beginning stages of an inguinal hernial...

Yours is literally mo' betta', but I thought of my double-hernias when AJ posted this.
 
that's what I'm talking about...

and geeme's and EM's analogy is kinda right too...I can see it...

I am saying that plants that have that stingered look is caused by a specific gene or group of genes that result in the "stronger annular ring"...

can anyone give a better explanation as to why there are tailed pods?...has to be genetics...
 
AJ, the theory seems reasonable. And you've seen more of these things in recent years than damn near anyone. There is definitely correlation here. But the question in my mind (which would have to be answered by experiment/genetic deconstruction, as you suggest) is whether causation is from the ring or from the pepper and the ring happens to stick, looking as if the causation is reversed.

Does that make sense?

I have "stuck" rings on plenty of varietals, as do you, I'm sure. But most/none of them have altered fruit morphology due to the stick. Of course, it appears the base of your argument stems (haha) from the strength of the ring itself. Seems that could be tested relatively easily.

Then again, the strength of the ring solely might not be determinate on whether the morphology might be affected. i.e. Other species rings might be just as strong, but have fruit less malleable in early stage growth.

Does that make sense?
 
The rings from 2 different plants can be of the same strength, but if the pepper itself is strong enough on one then the ring will break. Is that what you are saying EM?
 
i suppose both of you have hit another possibility...harder/stronger the pepper....possible, however, I bet you a dollar to a donut that the fruit from the same plant has the same "specific strength" as another pod and each tailed pod will have the ring attached to the ovum longer than nontailed pods from the same plant...
 
The rings from 2 different plants can be of the same strength, but if the pepper itself is strong enough on one then the ring will break. Is that what you are saying EM?

Yup. That was one theory, if the ring is the deciding factor on the tails.

i suppose both of you have hit another possibility...harder/stronger the pepper....possible, however, I bet you a dollar to a donut that the fruit from the same plant has the same "specific strength" as another pod and each tailed pod will have the ring attached to the ovum longer than nontailed pods from the same plant...

Seems reasonable.


What ways would there be to test your theory AJ?

Great question. Do you test the tensile strength of the ring on the same plant from fruit to fruit? Even then, you couldn't necessarily prove that the ring is what caused the morphology. Although you'd come closer to being able to determine so with the tensile-strength test alone.

I'd actually love to hear more from Ronnie or anyone on how to test this.

edit: Re-read Ronnie's last post. Sounds like he'd approach it from a timed approach based on that ovum restriction.

Also, Ronnie, have you hit up CPI to see if they might have any theories?
 
The variety of plant is certainly one important thing but there must be environmental influences within the variety too. My ButchT scorpions are always the most variable having very few pods with "stinger" at times but other times they are loaded with them. I always thought humidity levels had something to do with it
 
The variety of plant is certainly one important thing but there must be environmental influences within the variety too. My ButchT scorpions are always the most variable having very few pods with "stinger" at times but other times they are loaded with them. I always thought humidity levels had something to do with it

Yet another variable to consider...
 
So you are suggesting that the cause is the longer time it is attached???

hmmmmmmmmmmmmm

yes, I could get all technical now and start a disertation on the energy absorption properties of materials...but that is for another time..

What ways would there be to test your theory AJ?

testing the theory is where the trouble comes in...if it is the way I'm thinkin', then there will be a specific gene or group of genes that in a specific configuration on the DNA molecule causes the "tail" trait.....I was reading the other day where they have identified something like 50K genes for plants so there is ongoing reasearch on the subject...so first order of business would be to choose varieties to work with...the scorpion is a natural at this point because this is why I asked the question to begin with...may need another chinense and annuum of a known untailed variety to analyze for genetic structure comparison...

Also, Ronnie, have you hit up CPI to see if they might have any theories?

NMSU doesn't want to talk to me evidently but I do have contacts at a couple of universities...

The variety of plant is certainly one important thing but there must be environmental influences within the variety too. My ButchT scorpions are always the most variable having very few pods with "stinger" at times but other times they are loaded with them. I always thought humidity levels had something to do with it

agreed one hundred percent Derek....all factors would have to be noted for grow conparisons...the amount of data to be collected could be phenomenal...
 
I like AJ's theory about the "annular rings" but could it also be some sort of external defense mechanism? Sort of like how a cactus or prickly pear have spines. The capsaicin might be enough to ward off certain mammals and herbivores but a visible "stinger" may be interpreted as some type of warning and provide extra protection. I find that the "stinger" looks intimidating even to humans. :halo:
 
This is a really cool topic to test AJ. I'd love to read about it and any experimentation you did. Here are the ways I would test it if it were me:

Part 1: Settle on a standard measurement for how intense of a tail shape you have. I would do (length of tail)/(length of pod) which should give you a number between 0-1 based on how intense of a tail you have.

Part 2: Plan to analyze and test for three factors here.
  • Whether or not a flower "annual ring" clinging to the swelling ovum will form a stronger tail than those pods without an annual ring.
  • Whether or not a pod with a clinging "annual ring" will have the same effect on tail length if the flower/ring is removed early in pod development
  • Whether you can determine what factors about this annual ring, if anything, will force the plant to form a stronger tail.
Let me elaborate.

Here is a rough procedure you should follow: Grow many scorpion plants. I would grow at least five to have a real good data set. Indoor growing would be the best because you have the most control over your environment and where the light hits, but it is not necessarily vital for the experiment.

To test the first of the three factors you should mark multiple pods from two categories: Pods with an attached annual ring, and pods without. Measure tail factor when ripe and analyze for a difference. This is relatively easy.

For the second factor you will need to take other pods with annual rings, and then carefully remove the rings without damaging the pod or calyx. Grow them until ripe and measure tail factor. Compare these numbers to the pods with the annual rings still on. This is to tell you which is the horse and which is the cart in this experiment, ie, Does the pod grow a longer tail because the flower gets stuck on, or does the flower get stuck on because of the way the pod and tail is going to grow?

For the third factor you will need to get creative. Take a bunch of pods WITHOUT the annual ring stuck on. You want to test what about the ring might be causing stronger tails to grow: is it pressure on the outsides of the pod restricting growth, or lower light conditions underneath where the ring would be? Could it be both? You want to try to get the ring of whatever you're putting on the pod to be as close to where the true flower would land on the pod, and if possible, try to replicate the flower as much as possible. Here are some things that you might be able to try:

low light, low pressure:
-Draw a ring on the pod with some sort of marker. I would imagine you'd want a reflective color such as white or silver but you can try different colors

low light, high pressure:
-A rubber band from someone with braces might work well. Try to get a thin one because you don't want it to be too tight on there.
-Opaque tape cut into a thin ring wrapped around the pod

high light, high pressure:
-Clear tape cut into a thin ring and wrapped around the pod

high light, low pressure:
-Control, do nothing

Test for tail factor in all of these and see if you can make any conclusions based on them. None of them will replicate natural conditions very well so this might give you very good insight on what's happening, or it might not tell you anything at all. It's still a very useful thing to test for and put in the report, especially if you want really good evidence of what's happening. Also, if you find a way to grow gnarly tails, you might find a cool way to grow long-stingered show pods artificially!

I can probably write a 20 page report on that without any stretching of the material. If you need more you might even be able to get multiple spring constant value rubber bands to test the pods with and see if they have any difference. You might even try two or three rubber bands on one pod if you can fit to see if that changes it any further. That's another several pages right there.


I know it's long and confusing but I'm tired from writing code all day so I hope that helps!
 
hey...great comments...but I am not going to do the testing....I thought it might be worthy of some biogeneticist that is interested in peppers...a masters research or maybe even PhD dissertation...

I am going to present this subject to a couple of friends and see what they have to say and if they have any incoming grad students that would like to do this...

It is kinda of a frivolous subject but I have been thinking about this subject for several years now...
 
I tend to pick the ring off of the pepper as early as possible, even before it's had much of a chance to have an effect on the shape of the individual pod. Last year I grew a yellow Trinidad Scorpion with seed from Silver Surfer that had some of the most pronounced tails I've ever seen. None of the rings were allowed to stay on the pods yet I still had some of the most pronounced tails I've ever had.
 
Back
Top