Naga musings - Jolokia, Dorset, Morich etc

[Pappy McPepper]

This seems to be a fairly confusing area. Mark's Naga Morich (or Moresh) pods are orange:

http://www.thechileman.org/guide_img/naga_morich.jpg

... but the (Morich-derived?) Naga Dorset goes red:

http://www.jonco48.com/blog/dorset_20naga.jpg

But then, if you look into the Jolokia varieties you see both long, thin pods named "Jolokia" as well as plants that look exactly (to my novice eyes) like Dorset Naga.

Examples -->

This is what the Indians/Bangladeshis call Naga Jolokia or "Bih Jolokia" (pics too big to post here):
http://www.hotternell.com/Jolokia.JPG
http://www.hotternell.com/Jolokia4.JPG

What westerners think is naga jolokia:
http://petterssononline.com/habanero/images/2002/371_22.jpg

Confusing?

[Pappy McPepper]

That's ok. I got more info here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naga_jolokia

:mouthonfire:

[chuk hell]

Well OK. I'm cofussed.

I do want to try growing some of these next year.

[darlochileman]

The Dorset Naga , Naga Morich (Moresh or Morrich) and Bih Jolokia are VERY VERY SIMILAR. The confusion at the moment is the former seems to mature to red, the later two dark orange. It terms of pod shape, wall thickness, calyx length, plant size and heat etc etc their is little (if anything) to chose between them as they are all variants of the same variety.

Don't get these confused with Naga Jolokia (also called Tezpur or PC-1)- these are completely different and a very poor relation in my view. For starters they are more cayenne like and if you ask anyone who has grown them, they do not live up to the hype.

Mark

[Pappy McPepper]

Mark, the pepper that some people call "jolokia" (long, thin, cayenne-like) is NOT naga jolokia aka Bih Jolokia. Naga is a region (Nagaland) and jolokia just means "pepper". Study the wikipedia page on that pepper (see link above). Check all links on that page.

The real Naga Jolokia seem to be the grandaddy of Dorset, Morich, and more!

[Tina Brooks]

I am (used to be???) a contributor to Wikipedia and although it is a great resource, I wouldn't exactly put too much store in what you find printed there. They are more interested in the fact that the contributors can show an online source for their information than they are interested in that source's information being factual.

At least they've finally started making people use the 15,000,000 number for maximum SHUS. :) THAT was no small feat, let me tell you.

T

[Guy Holman]

Yeah it can get a bit Wackypedia from time to time

Guy

[Pappy McPepper]

Main thing is, I WANT THOSE SEEDS!!

[Tina Brooks]

Pappy, pappy, pappy... you can buy them online. Of course, that's even less reliable than Wackypedia (Thanks Guy).

T

[Philipperv]

I just found a really good source of info:

http://www.uni-graz.at/~katzer/engl/Caps_fru.html

and here is a running account of the Red Savina vs the Naga Jolokia:

http://www.thechillifactory.com/main.php?p=Chilli%20Facts

[Pappy McPepper]

I have some real problems with the way the Indian claims of high Scoville scores for naga jolokia have been handled in the West, with suggestions of dishonesty and fraud. It smacks of racism to me. Michael and Joy Michaud's peppers are from the same region, are probably even the same peppers, and nobody is calling them liars, perhaps because they speak English well and have white skins (although the tests they had done, by white people, also lent them credibility). :(

[Pappy McPepper]

Tina, I'm wary of online suppliers. Even if you get the right seed, it's often no longer viable.

[willard3]

I have some real problems with the way the Indian claims of high Scoville scores for naga jolokia have been handled in the West, with suggestions of dishonesty and fraud. It smacks of racism to me. Michael and Joy Michaud's peppers are from the same region, are probably even the same peppers, and nobody is calling them liars, perhaps because they speak English well and have white skins (although the tests they had done, by white people, also lent them credibility). :(


This, of course, begs the question:"So, because the Indians have brown skins, they must be right because we're racists...?"

The reason the Naga Jalokia information is discounted is because it has failed the primary scientific test: consistency of results from many recognized testing labs.

[darthcarl]

The reason the Naga Jalokia information is discounted is because it has failed the primary scientific test: consistency of results from many recognized testing labs.

I think cap concentration is too low to be consistant. Taking a page from wine training I'd guess that something that low will vary from plant to plant, side of the field to side of the field.

This gives me an idea...hmmm...a couple of ideas...........back to the lab!!

[Pappy McPepper]

Willard3, I suggest you review the various websites purporting to "debunk" the Indian tests. They debunk the results on the flimsiest of grounds, such as phone calls that weren't returned, and methodology that didn't seem quite right by our standards, etc. In other words, if you don't play by our western game, follow our business and paper-publishing model, respond to our calls, you're probably a cheat.

Now the fact that gives the lie to all this is the Dorset Naga tests, performed on a pepper from the northern India region, which found similar results to what the Indians found. Join the dots. It's not the Indians who are lying, it's certain self-appointed "experts" (*cough*Dave DeWitt*cough*) here in the West who got their racist noses out of joint when the Indian tests went against their pet theories of what the hottest pepper is.

[Pappy McPepper]

And here's the evidence of his racism. Without any proof whatsoever that the Indians cheated, in fact with proof from Dorset that they probably did NOT cheat, DeWitt, the self-styled "Pope of Peppers", published this (http://www.fiery-foods.com/dave/assam_chile2.asp):

How to Rig an HPLC Test

You’d think that a test is just a test, right? No, wrong. A test is only as good as its sample, its calibration, its operator, and its interpreter. There are no legal regulations or policies on the testing of chile peppers for pungency, and no restraints imposed upon claims made as a result of the test. So this means that if you provide a sample to a laboratory and they provide a superhot result, you can make any claims you want, much like the Indians did. There is no requirement for validation through another test. Not that I would ever do such a thing, but if I were going to prove that I grew the hottest chile in the world, here’s how I would proceed.

1. Find a laboratory that will test my sample with no questions asked about its origin.
2. Provide a carefully prepared sample. Instead of drying the chiles and presenting the entire pod, I would find the hottest habaneros imaginable and carefully remove the placental tissue, where the capsaicin glands are located, and then with tweezers pull off all the seeds and discard them. The idea is to test just the hottest part of the pod.
3. If the sample still doesn’t test hot enough for me, I would submit another sample, but this one treated with 1 million or more Scoville Heat Unit oleoresin capsicum, the superhot extract. This would skew the results even higher.
4. Then I would call a press conference and invite the gullible Associated Press, who spread the Indian story around the world, and tell them that I grew the hottest chile in the world, and provide them with the test results from the laboratory.

See how easy it is to manufacture the "proof?"

The Indian researchers and people involved should simply sue this guy's pants off. It's both racism AND libel. Shame, Mr DeWitt, shame!

[Remos]

Let them sue on what grounds? That quote has totally nothing to do with racism. The article is about someone claiming to have the hottest pepper, but doesn't have the evidence to back it up, so they explain how you could fake evidence that a pepper that hot would exist. They don't claim that anyone did, nor do I see them talking about a race, so what exactly is racist about that text? I'm from holland so my English reading and writing isn't always 100% perfect, so maybe I read the article wrong and I totally missed the point, In that case I apologize . But I'd love to here some clarification in that case.
Greetings Remi
And here's the evidence of his racism. Without any proof whatsoever that the Indians cheated, in fact with proof from Dorset that they probably did NOT cheat, DeWitt, the self-styled "Pope of Peppers", published this (http://www.fiery-foods.com/dave/assam_chile2.asp):



The Indian researchers and people involved should simply sue this guy's pants off. It's both racism AND libel. Shame, Mr DeWitt, shame!

[Pappy McPepper]

Remos, you obviously have some problems with reading comprehension.

[POTAWIE]

Remos, you obviously have some problems with reading comprehension.

I guess me not read good too. :?:

[sixstring75]

No problems with the article. Mr. Dewitt is simply being realistic.

[Tina Brooks]

And here's the evidence of his racism. Without any proof whatsoever that the Indians cheated, in fact with proof from Dorset that they probably did NOT cheat, DeWitt, the self-styled "Pope of Peppers", published this (http://www.fiery-foods.com/dave/assam_chile2.asp):

The Indian researchers and people involved should simply sue this guy's pants off. It's both racism AND libel. Shame, Mr DeWitt, shame!

Now hold it right there.

I have a bit of difficulty with you accusing Dave DeWitt of racism on the basis of that article. Whether or not he is racist is not supported by anything written in that article.

What you have done is taken a paragraph from a single article in a series of three and used those words to accuse a man of "racism". I despise racism in all its ugly forms, and nope... I don't see any hint of it in that article. What I do see is the result of Dr. Paul Bosland, the Chile Pepper Institute and Dave Dewitt's failure to have the named Indian Scientists produce samples for independent testing and scientific validation. Perhaps the animous that you detect in that article is a result of Dave feeling ignored or slighted or frustrated that the scientists failed to provide him with samples.

Good scientific experimental procedure must be followed before scientists will accept the veracity of any claim as factual. Heck, based on all the crapola on the internet that is presented as fact and repeated ad nauseum (eg: pure cap = anything other than 15,000,000 shu); it's a wonder that all chiliheads don't demand scientific support for EVERYTHING in this industry! lol

The first article (to my knowledge) that Dave wrote about the Tezpur was as a result of the magazine article that ran in the Japanese magazine Japan Sky in Sept. 2000; Said information was picked up and run with by the Associated Press. That article cited the Tezpur as being a "C. Frutescens". Anyone, racist or otherwise, who knows ANYTHING about pepper genus will know that it is highly unbelievable and probably impossible that a Frutescens could EVER clock higher than a Red Sav, never mind hit 10 digits!

Then (he doesn't say how), but Dave's attention got turned towards the article that the Japan Sky article was based on. (The link doesn't seem to work, but here it is anyway): http://tejas.serc.iisc.ernet.in/~currsci/aug102000/scr974.pdf

In that article the results of the tests were originally published. (I've sent a request to someone who might actually have a copy on their hard drive to send me a copy of it.)

With that article in hand, Dave sent out requests to the cited scientists asking them to help him back up their claims, requested information on whether the same scientific standards the US labs use were used, etc. He even asked them to send him some samples of the peppers that they tested.

From what I can tell -- (I haven't discussed this with Dave) that final article, which you posted, is a result of the repeated requests and subesequent non-response of the Indian Scientists.

I have no wonder that Dave finds the whole thing hoaxy, all things considered, so do I.

That said...

When someone says something and can't or won't back it up... you start to question its veracity. That simply happens through common sense -- Not racism.

If that article is the only reason that you use to allow yourself to accuse Dave of racism, then you might as well call every thinking chilihead a racist too.

T

[thehotpepper.com]

Remos, you obviously have some problems with reading comprehension.
Nope, you do.

[Pappy McPepper]

It's simple, people. "Indians" are a race (India is populated mostly by Indo-Aryans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Aryans)). If he'd substituted "Eskimos" for Indians, you'd see my point. Or "Blacks". I'm surprised this is not apparent to you. What he should have done is name the scientists by name. Which would have made the item he posted even more thoroughly and unarguably libellous.

[thehotpepper.com]

Move on.

[Guy Holman]

Tina

The article can be found at
www.ias.ac.in/currsci/aug102000/scr974.pdf

there is also a more recent article on the Naga in the same publication from 2005

www.ias.ac.in/currsci/may252005/1545.pdf

Hope this helps

Guy

[Tina Brooks]

Tina

The article can be found at
www.ias.ac.in/currsci/aug102000/scr974.pdf

there is also a more recent article on the Naga in the same publication from 2005

www.ias.ac.in/currsci/may252005/1545.pdf

Hope this helps

Guy

Excellent... Thanks for the links.

T

[imaguitargod]

Move on.
I like pie.

[Guy Holman]

Cow Pies I imagine are not to your taste...long live Desperate Dan

[Tina Brooks]

Cow Pies I imagine are not to your taste...long live Desperate Dan

At risk of evolving this conversation away from naga Morich and other like peppers... Who is Desperate Dan???

[imaguitargod]

Who is Desperate Dan???
Desperate Dan is a wild west character in the British comic The Dandy. He, unlike me, liked cows and their "pies"...

[Cap'n Bones]

Wow, that Dan guy really sounds like a perv.

[Tina Brooks]

I just had to ask.

[Remos]

Glad to see that my reading is still fine.
However I would like to hear a lot more about the different naga's cause I'm very interrested in them. I bought some dorset naga seeds on ebay, still waiting to receive though, should be any day now, and even if those seeds are not what they are suppose to be I have someone who has offered me some real seeds for free. , thnx for that btw:) anyway I'd love to hear your storys and theory's about naga morrich or dorset naga or any close relative, cause as I said, these peppers sure got my interrest!
Remi

[Pappy McPepper]

The article can be found at
www.ias.ac.in/currsci/aug102000/scr974.pdf
there is also a more recent article on the Naga in the same publication from 2005
www.ias.ac.in/currsci/may252005/1545.pdf


Thank you, Guy. :cheers:

[bluelytes]

REMOS,
Agree with you. Your english if FINE, just that some people HAVE to play the race card, particularly where there is NO RACE involved. But, to each his own, I guess.

REMOS,
I have some seeds that are purported to be from india, and you are welcome to some. just email me.

[Remos]

REMOS,
Agree with you. Your english if FINE, just that some people HAVE to play the race card, particularly where there is NO RACE involved. But, to each his own, I guess.

REMOS,
I have some seeds that are purported to be from india, and you are welcome to some. just email me.

Thanks, send you an e-mail right away!

[darlochileman]

Hi Guys,

Ive finally got round to updating the chile blog detailing my progress this with Naga Morich & Whippets Tail (amongst other things)

http://thechileman.blogspot.com/

In the meantime, heres some more Naga Morich photos to feast your eyes on:

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y295/thechileman/Naga_1.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y295/thechileman/NagaPlant.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y295/thechileman/Naga2.jpg

Tina/imaguitargod - how are you guys getting in with the seeds I sent over?

mark

[imaguitargod]

Tina/imaguitargod - how are you guys getting in with the seeds I sent over?

mark

They are doing AWSOME! I had to retransplant from the front planter into pots for a few of them. The one plant that I had in a large pot from the beginning is in need of some fertalizer but has one or two peppers on it (small at this point).

[Tina Brooks]

Hi Guys,

Ive finally got round to updating the chile blog detailing my progress this with Naga Morich & Whippets Tail (amongst other things)

http://thechileman.blogspot.com/

In the meantime, heres some more Naga Morich photos to feast your eyes on:

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y295/thechileman/Naga_1.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y295/thechileman/NagaPlant.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y295/thechileman/Naga2.jpg

Tina/imaguitargod - how are you guys getting in with the seeds I sent over?

mark


They seem to be coming along swimmingly. Every one that we planted seems to have sprouted, although the largest one stands only about 4 inches tall, and we are looking for a 365 day greenhouse in which to overwinter them; they're not going to flower and ripen before first frost I'm afraid.

Some will come to live in my kitchen, but the rest we will have to find homes for.

T

[imaguitargod]

Update, I have...offically...11 peppers on my one plant. I tuched one of them and my finger started to hurt :shocked:

[naganero]

It must have really hurt because your typing funny :)
Also I have planted my Naga's and am waiting or sprouts should be any day now
Once I have peppers we should compare the ones you have to mine Guitargod

[imaguitargod]

It must have really hurt because your typing funny :)

It did a little, lasted about a few minutes.

[naganero]

How long did yous take to germinate

[imaguitargod]

How long did yous take to germinate

About a week.

[naganero]

Mine have been about 8-9 days and still no sprouts :( , maybe next week.

[Remos]

Mine have been about 8-9 days and still no sprouts :( , maybe next week.

Patience is the game we play:) I have to wait till december to plant my dorset naga and naga morrich seeds, don't have room for huge plants in the winter:(

[Philipperv]

Mine have been about 8-9 days and still no sprouts :( , maybe next week.

Be patient. My 1st seed took that long and now i've got 3 out of 5 germinating.

[Pappy McPepper]

That plant looks beautiful.

[DaveinCoalinga]

All mine took about 2 weeks give or take a few days. I know have 4 beautiful 6 inch Nagas, and my friends have the other 4 all doing well. Seem to be slow growing, but beautiful sturdy plants.

[imaguitargod]

Man, I am getting too eager to try one of these...my peppers are getting bigger really fast so it should only be a matter of a month till I have a ri[pe Naga to munch on!

[naganero]

Update I finally got a seedling. My Naga has sproted. just 1 and its little but its there.

[Tony]

Hey Naganero,

Good to hear you have lift-off. Anything between 7-14 days
is normal. What are you using to germinate? Rockwool cubes
in a propagator gives me the most reliable results.

Tony.

[naganero]

I am using some small cups filled with E.B. Stone organic seed starting mix, A little super bloom and I know this sounds funny but I put them in a ziplock bag. So far every seed has germinated 100%.

[Cap'n Bones]

Hey Naganero,

Good to hear you have lift-off. Anything between 7-14 days
is normal. What are you using to germinate? Rockwool cubes
in a propagator gives me the most reliable results.

Tony.

Hey Tony, help a dummy like me out, what is a Rockwool Cube? :oops:

[imaguitargod]

Hey Tony, help a dummy like me out, what is a Rockwool Cube? :oops:
I know I'm not Tony, but I can help. Rock wool is an inorganic substance used for insulation and filtering. It's also used for plants. You can take cuttings of a plant and stick them in rock wool, give them fertalizers and mineral substitues, and it will grow roots (cloning plants 101). When I go to the "special" medical stores to get my meds, they have clones of different types of medicinal plants that are clones in rock wool with roots out the bottom. You also can start seeds in them.

[Tony]

Hey Tony, help a dummy like me out, what is a Rockwool Cube? :oops:

Hi Cap'n,

Sorry, I was sleeping ;-)
Rockwool is an inert material made by heat-treating volcanic
rock and spinning it out into fine threads. These are compacted
into slabs and are available from hydroponics shops in slabs
or various cube sizes. For sowing seeds they come in inch and
half-inch cubes with a small indent in for the seed.

The key point is that even when fully saturated with water they
manage to retain a large percentage of air - meaning that your
seeds won't rot and have the best of both moisture and oxygen,
just what it needs for successful germination.

Another plus is that there is no mess and the seedling can
be transferred to either a conventional pot with compost or
hydroponics rig without root disturbance.

Here's a tray of rockwool cubes:

http://www.1-hydroponics.co.uk/images/grow-media/mediumsize/grow-plugs.jpg

[POTAWIE]

Rockwool is great, but I use it maily for rooting cuttings. I find seedlings grow better and faster in a sterilized peat/vermiculite/pelite mixture where the roots can travel easier.

[Sickmont]

Hi Cap'n,

Sorry, I was sleeping ;-)
Rockwool is an inert material made by heat-treating volcanic
rock and spinning it out into fine threads. These are compacted
into slabs and are available from hydroponics shops in slabs
or various cube sizes. For sowing seeds they come in inch and
half-inch cubes with a small indent in for the seed.

The key point is that even when fully saturated with water they
manage to retain a large percentage of air - meaning that your
seeds won't rot and have the best of both moisture and oxygen,
just what it needs for successful germination.

Another plus is that there is no mess and the seedling can
be transferred to either a conventional pot with compost or
hydroponics rig without root disturbance.

Here's a tray of rockwool cubes:

http://www.1-hydroponics.co.uk/images/grow-media/mediumsize/grow-plugs.jpg


God, i'm having flashbacks now. I used to be a Union Insulator, and i used that stuff every darn day.

[Cap'n Bones]

Thank you all! I'm glad that I asked. :cheers:

[POTAWIE]

Some good info on this site with lots of links. See "other sightings"
http://www.dorsetnaga.com/

[Guy Holman]

Got a few Dorset Nagas in post today

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b56/Guy_Holman/Dorset-Naga.jpg

Slightly disappointing heat...Trinidad Scorpions hotter as are the Naga Morrich I have had in past...maybe i just bit into a dud .

Guy

[darlochileman]

Guy,

I agree with you, I was also a little disappointed with the Dorset Nagas in relation to the Naga Morich from which they were developed.

Looking forward to growing out Trinidad Scorpions next year - the 2007 Naga Morich? (the king is dead long live the king and all that)

Mark

[Guy Holman]

Hey Mark

The second one i tried was just the same.....ummmm. Oh well at least I have another set of pods forming on the TS. I may bring a plant indoors for some isolated pods (one plant is starting to flower again).

Off for a few days hols tomorrow but i will be in touch with you soon m8. Got a few bits n pieces you might like!

All the best

Guy