CFL Bulb Question

[JJBagoose]

Hi,

I am trying to provide my plants some good light before they can go outside on a regular/permanant basis.

I had one of these GE General Purpose Energy Smart CFLs (100watt equivalent) that I am using over my plants.

Will this work? If so how well? I remember reading somewhere on here that there is a different type of CFL that should be used. Is there a big difference?

thanks,
jj

[alawn]

They come in different colors. 6500k is slightly blue and is better for vegetative growth. 2700k is slightly yellow and is better for flowering and fruiting. If you are only growing indoors until you move them outdoors then the 6500k one might be a little better.

CFLs will work but one 26W (100W equivalent) isn't a lot of light. How much you need depends on you grow area and how many plants. They don't get very hot so try to put the light close to the plants.

[wordwiz]

alawn,

I have to disagree with you, at least to a point.

I use CFLs a bunch. In a 20"x30" area, I use four 23 watt, 2700K CFLs and get more than enough Lux to support growth without the plants getting very leggy. But they do put out more heat than the regular flourescent lights and can burn a plant, or quickly dry out potting soil.

I also use one 20 watt (75 watt equivalent), 2700K CFL per potato plant and it is plenty of light. They are growing at the steady rate of four inches per week.

Mike

[Omri]

26W will be enough for a while, but at some point it'll be like feeding a grown man with baby sized dishes. no, not the size of baby, but the size of the dishes a baby eats. :lol:

[teh purple penguins]

mmmm babies.. get IN my Tummeh!

[JJBagoose]

Thanks for the good info.

I am trying to light about a 12"x18" space with 1 26w 2700 cfl bulb. I have the bulb about 12 inches from the plants.

It sounds like a little more light would be better but maybe not necessary.

[ring sting]

What's a " ?
Sorry, I work in metric, and am interested in this thread too.

RS

[QuebecFire]

Thanks for the good info.

I am trying to light about a 12"x18" space with 1 26w 2700 cfl bulb. I have the bulb about 12 inches from the plants.

It sounds like a little more light would be better but maybe not necessary.

yon can bring the bulb as far as 1-2 inver over your plant cause cfl did'nt have a big penetration range

[AlabamaJack]

What's a " ?
Sorry, I work in metric, and am interested in this thread too.

RS

" = inch

1 inch = 2.54 cm

[ring sting]

Ty AJ,
always get ' and " mixed up is all.

RS

[JJBagoose]

Ty AJ,
always get ' and " mixed up is all.

RS

LOL, sorry of my lack of international consideration :oops:

[ring sting]

Dont let it bother you JJ, soon enough you'll see a post by me referring to temps in celcius, or using metric... It's just the ' and " thing that gets me.

Now, if I could only get my hands on a hogshead of ale and perhaps a scruple of good soluble fertilizer!

http://www.vgr.com.au/technical/weightsandmeasurers.htm

RS

[JJBagoose]

Does not compute................. :mouthonfire:

[QuadShotz]

Heh, I remember reading about those in The Swiss Family Robinson book. ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hogshead

Scruple: http://www.convert-me.com/en/convert/units/weight/weight.scruple.en.html

[JJBagoose]

yon can bring the bulb as far as 1-2 inver over your plant cause cfl did'nt have a big penetration range

Interesting, I was worried about putting the lamp too close to the plants. I thought I could burn the leaves or something.

So the closer the better? Would I get better growth that way too?

[POTAWIE]

You'll get more compact growth since the plants won't be stretching for the light

[RichardK]

I have 12 pots, and 12 - 26 Watt - 2700K CFL's hanging overhead, about an inch or so.

I have homemade dome reflectors on every one making sure the ballast guts part sticks outside the dome with a fan in my area to circulate air and keep the lights cool.

So far my plants are very bushy, and healthy.

The only thing is, light does not get to the lower leaves very well and you have to leave the lights on for a very long time.

I have mine on a timer set to 16/8 (16 on, 8 off). Also It's important to make sure the plants dark period is not interrupted.

[JJBagoose]

Good info Rich, I have 2 questions below:

I have homemade dome reflectors on every one making sure the ballast guts part sticks outside the dome with a fan in my area to circulate air and keep the lights cool.

ballast? When you say guts, which part are your referring to?


Also It's important to make sure the plants dark period is not interrupted.
Could you expand on this a little? Are you saying that the times you leave the light setup off you don't want any light introduced during this period?

thanks!

[POTAWIE]

I may be wong but I don't believe the dark period is so important with peppers. There is likely a point of diminishing returns after around 16 hours of light but exta light is not bad just not neccesary IMO.

[AlabamaJack]

there are those on this site that will tell you peppers are not photoperiod sensitive...I used to run my lights 24 on, then switched to 16/8, now I am at 12/12 and honestly can not tell the difference in the growth of the plants...my 4 X 4 grow box has eight four foot T12 40 watt fluorescents (4-4100K and 4 6500K) and a bar of six 43 watt (150 watt equivalent) 2700K bulbs.

my grow area has three shelves 8 feet long and 2 feet apart. Each shelf has 8 T12 40 bulbs (half 4100 and half 6500).

I am very happy with the results so far. The grow box will be used to "overwinter" my best 4 or 5 plants and hopefully keep them producing...

There are lots of strings here on artificial lighting...

sorry to ramble...

forgot to say I keep my lights about 2 inches from the top of the plants...

[RichardK]

Good info Rich, I have 2 questions below:

ballast? When you say guts, which part are your referring to?


The cylinder part above the spiral that houses the guts of the light.


Could you expand on this a little? Are you saying that the times you leave the light setup off you don't want any light introduced during this period?

Indeed, because they are only getting 8 hours of darkness it's a good idea (for most plants) to make sure they dont get exposed to any strong light source for an extended period of time...

Small levels of light are nothing bad, Plants get moonlight and star light all the time so you can go in there with a flashlight and look around, thats not going to harm anything. But I dont leave any light on in or near that room when the lights are off.

[AlabamaJack]

Indeed, because they are only getting 8 hours of darkness it's a good idea (for most plants) to make sure they dont get exposed to any strong light source for an extended period of time...

Small levels of light are nothing bad, Plants get moonlight and star light all the time so you can go in there with a flashlight and look around, thats not going to harm anything. But I dont leave any light on in or near that room when the lights are off.


RichardK...is this your opinion or do you have documentation to verify your assertions about light and hot peppers...not trying to be argumentative, just wanting clarification...

Other crops grown indoors ARE photosensitive but that genus species is a bit different than peppers...

[POTAWIE]

I think what he's saying is when the lights are off(no matter the # of hours) there shouldn't be other bright lights around and in theory he's right the plants might stretch for that light, but I leave a fairly bright light on in my greenhouse to see what I'm doing at night and have never seen negative results.

[RichardK]

I think what he's saying is when the lights are off(no matter the # of hours) there shouldn't be other bright lights around and in theory he's right the plants might stretch for that light, but I leave a fairly bright light on in my greenhouse to see what I'm doing at night and have never seen negative results.

That AND it screws with their internal timing, I had regular bell peppers growing indoors go dormant and drop all their leaves because of irregular lighting patterns.

Some plants are tied into the seasons, and when light levels change they can fruit too early, or go dormant. I dont really need to reference anything for that, you can look it up yourself.

But here are some links I just dug up:
http://www.jyi.org/news/nb.php?id=1138
http://www.physorg.com/news103217473.html

And a snippet from allexperts.com
Plants NEED Darkness
Plants need dark periods. Periods of light (called photo-periods) and dark periods and their relative lengths have an effect on plant maturity. Recent studies have conclusively proven that it is not just the length of the day which affects growth, but the duration of the dark period which follows. The dark period of each day affects flowering and seeding of most plants. Although many plants can grow under continuous light, nearly all plants prefer a dark period each day for normal growth. All plants need some darkness to grow well or to trigger flowering. The ideal photoperiods of plants vary, some preferring long days and short nights; others the reverse; and some do best when the length of the night and day periods are equal.

It's really not that hard to find this stuff, and I'm a bit suprised some of you dont know this :)

[Omri]

Nice and everything, just that chiles aren't photoperiod sensitive, so that doesn't apply.

[willard3]

Read here for definition of day neutral. Chiles are day neutral:

http://davesgarden.com/guides/terms/go/1090/

http://www.sparknotes.com/biology/plants/essentialprocesses/terms/term_7.html

[chuk hell]

This thread has gotten way too technical for me but I'll just chime that I've had great luck using CFL for starting my plants. Got several in clamp lights on a cheap timer. The whole rig costs about 20 bucks.

The plants do fine until they are ready to be hardened off.

[wordwiz]

What I am finding is that the amount of useable light delivered to the plants in what counts. I have about 90 tomato, 10 cucumber, 10 eggplant and 20 pepper seedlings growing in my box. They are getting at least 7700 lux of light. The plants all start out a little leggy (especially the cucumbers that were four inches tall two days after poking their head through the soil), but since then only one pepper plant is showing any signs of growing taller quicker rather than wider at the same rate. My lights are, for the most part, about six inches from the tops of most of the plants, which means they are getting more than 7,700 lux of useful light.

I've seen arguments about which lights to use are best for foliage, flowering, fruiting, but the sun puts out all the spectrums and the plants know how to use it.

Mike

[Omri]

What I am finding is that the amount of useable light delivered to the plants in what counts. I have about 90 tomato, 10 cucumber, 10 eggplant and 20 pepper seedlings growing in my box. They are getting at least 7700 lux of light. The plants all start out a little leggy (especially the cucumbers that were four inches tall two days after poking their head through the soil), but since then only one pepper plant is showing any signs of growing taller quicker rather than wider at the same rate. My lights are, for the most part, about six inches from the tops of most of the plants, which means they are getting more than 7,700 lux of useful light.

I've seen arguments about which lights to use are best for foliage, flowering, fruiting, but the sun puts out all the spectrums and the plants know how to use it.

Mike
Look, this might sound a bit mean, but trust me I don't want it to sound mean.
It seems like you "discovered" some technical data about light and got just a little bit overexcited.

LUX AND PAR ARE NOT IMPORTANT

People here use bulbs, so they can adjust the distance. more Lux is not going to help you. Plants use different wavelengths differently, and PAR is pretty much all of them.
Right now you are "feeding" your plants with the equivalent of tomatoes to people. sure tomatoes are good for you, but you can't live on tomatoes alone. they will grow, will give fruit... just not as healthy as they should.

I've said it multiple times, and you chose to ignore. obviously it's your choice, but your telling people it's better than getting some proper lights. 6500K is not blue, it's white. the good thing about most 6500K is the wide spectrum, "feeding" the plants relatively healthy. not the best you can get, but better than all red and some green (your bulbs).

Now about your sun argument. the sun is the freaking sun. what really makes it so good is not the Lux, but the WIDE SPECTRUM. when you use 2700K you don't have a wide spectrum, not even close. you just a bulb with high percentage of red and yellowish-green and maybe some blue which is PAR, but not what the plant needs.

------------

You can listen or maybe just think about that. it's ok if you don't, I just wanted the member who posted this will get the info.
You have a decent setup, not because of the damn Lux or PAR. because you have a decent setup, even with your weird and superficial logic, you'll get decent growth.
When you tell people the principle of growing light according to you, they might go and get a crappy setup which still matches your description.

Hope there's not hard feelings, just one of many ways I try to communicate (tried different approaches before).
Have a great day. :)

[JJBagoose]

I've said it multiple times, and you chose to ignore. obviously it's your choice, but your telling people it's better than getting some proper lights. 6500K is not blue, it's white. the good thing about most 6500K is the wide spectrum, "feeding" the plants relatively healthy. not the best you can get, but better than all red and some green (your bulbs).

Now about your sun argument. the sun is the freaking sun. what really makes it so good is not the Lux, but the WIDE SPECTRUM. when you use 2700K you don't have a wide spectrum, not even close. you just a bulb with high percentage of red and yellowish-green and maybe some blue which is PAR, but not what the plant needs.


Please forgive me for the ignorance Omri but are you basically saying that I should be trying to use the 6500K (Daylight) bulbs over the 2700K bulbs? This would produce better results.

[Omri]

Each bulb is different, even with the same color temperature. what I'm saying is you should get a WIDER spectrum, and if possible a bulb with just the right wavelengths the plant really needs.

Here is some technical data:
http://chilebase.com/index.php/2008/03/22/light-plants-part-ii-hardcore-data/

You can actually see how different wavelengths contribute to different levels of photosynthetic activity which is converted directly into energy.

[JJBagoose]

And the 6500K bulbs generally have a wider spectrum making them the better choice.

[Omri]

And the 6500K bulbs generally have a wider spectrum making them the better choice.
Theoretically, yes. you still need to make sure you get the right wavelengths. each manufacturer uses different wavelengths to produce the same final color temperature.

[JJBagoose]

Theoretically, yes. you still need to make sure you get the right wavelengths. each manufacturer uses different wavelengths to produce the same final color temperature.

OK, thanks for the info. :)

[thepodpiper]

Hi,

I am trying to provide my plants some good light before they can go outside on a regular/permanant basis.

I had one of these GE General Purpose Energy Smart CFLs (100watt equivalent) that I am using over my plants.

Will this work? If so how well? I remember reading somewhere on here that there is a different type of CFL that should be used. Is there a big difference?

thanks,
jj

jj, if all you want to do is get them to a good size for planting out all you need is cheap fluorescent tubes (cool white or warm white it does not matter). Now if you are looking to do something else other than planting them outside then you should look into something more elaborate as Omri has pointed out.

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o65/thepodpiper/DCP_1824.jpg

Dale

[Omri]

jj, if all you want to do is get them to a good size for planting out all you need is cheap fluorescent tubes (cool white or warm white it does not matter). Now if you are looking to do something else other than planting them outside then you should look into something more elaborate as Omri has pointed out.

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o65/thepodpiper/DCP_1824.jpg

Dale
Ah... I always enjoy pictures of your setup. looks like a small business. :P
6500K WILL give you that cool-looking purple color, so you might want some blue-violet colors anyway. ;)

[thepodpiper]

Omri , thanks, actually I did put some of those every other bulb (10 in all) and they do seem to be growing better under those fixtures.

Dale

[thepodpiper]

Omri, did you say the 6500 are good for vegetative growth?

Dale

[Omri]

Omri, did you say the 6500 are good for vegetative growth?

Dale
Why wouldn't they be?

[wordwiz]

Omri,

I do choose to ignore you! No hard feelings or animosity, it's just mostof the readings I have done say PAR light is important, as is the amount of LUX. I'm sure you know what LUX is and the more lumens a plant receives, the better - at least to a point. Consider this before stating Lux is not important: Calculations based on a model made by PPO, show that tomatoes cultivated in the Netherlands, lit with 10,000 lux can produce 92 kg/m2 annually, and with 15,000 lux it is possible to produce 104 kg/m2. (This was a study dealing with using lighting in addition to the sun - you can read one study here: http://www.pllight.com/horticultural/sampleapps/vegetables.php )

With a higher amount of LUX, I do not need to keep the lights very close to the plants - a consideration when I have six inch cucumbers growing next to 1/2 inch tomatoes or peppers. There is enough light reaching the plants that they do not get leggy.

As for PAR, I believe what NASA and hundreds of reserches have said - plants absorb red and blue light while not absorbing yellow, green or violet. It seems quite foolish to waste electricity that will be used to excite phosphors that produce green and yellow light if my primary purpose it to promote plant growth.

I have no doubt one can achieve decent plant growth using 5000K lights and anyone who wants to certainly may. But science says while it makes the plants look better to the human eye, the light is not as efficent per watt. Here's what one lighting expert (from Envirolite) states: The main value of the PAR measurement is that it is the only measure that takes into account the actual light and light colours that the plant uses to energise its pigments and generate sugar energy, and it’s the sugar that makes your plants grow and produce such sweet fruits!

I will grant you that most reports say that 5000K lights tend to promote vegetation better but I am not finding that to be true. They are not as tall as plants that have been under 5000K lights but their leaves are larger.

YMMV and you are apparently doing a good job growing peppers. With all respect and in friendship, I feel it is best to let you run your railroad and I'll run mine!

Mike

[wordwiz]

LUX AND PAR ARE NOT IMPORTANT
more Lux is not going to help you.

Try growing plants under 700 lux of lights or use lamps that provide 100,000 lumens of violet wavelength light. Let me know your results. :)
To avow that lux or PAR is not important is doing a disservice to people who may not know better.

Again, no animosity. Just a difference in opinion, beliefs and experiences.

Mike

[Omri]

Omri,

I do choose to ignore you! No hard feelings or animosity, it's just mostof the readings I have done say PAR light is important, as is the amount of LUX. I'm sure you know what LUX is and the more lumens a plant receives, the better - at least to a point. Consider this before stating Lux is not important: Calculations based on a model made by PPO, show that tomatoes cultivated in the Netherlands, lit with 10,000 lux can produce 92 kg/m2 annually, and with 15,000 lux it is possible to produce 104 kg/m2. (This was a study dealing with using lighting in addition to the sun - you can read one study here: http://www.pllight.com/horticultural/sampleapps/vegetables.php )

With a higher amount of LUX, I do not need to keep the lights very close to the plants - a consideration when I have six inch cucumbers growing next to 1/2 inch tomatoes or peppers. There is enough light reaching the plants that they do not get leggy.

As for PAR, I believe what NASA and hundreds of reserches have said - plants absorb red and blue light while not absorbing yellow, green or violet. It seems quite foolish to waste electricity that will be used to excite phosphors that produce green and yellow light if my primary purpose it to promote plant growth.

I have no doubt one can achieve decent plant growth using 5000K lights and anyone who wants to certainly may. But science says while it makes the plants look better to the human eye, the light is not as efficent per watt. Here's what one lighting expert (from Envirolite) states: The main value of the PAR measurement is that it is the only measure that takes into account the actual light and light colours that the plant uses to energise its pigments and generate sugar energy, and it’s the sugar that makes your plants grow and produce such sweet fruits!

I will grant you that most reports say that 5000K lights tend to promote vegetation better but I am not finding that to be true. They are not as tall as plants that have been under 5000K lights but their leaves are larger.

YMMV and you are apparently doing a good job growing peppers. With all respect and in friendship, I feel it is best to let you run your railroad and I'll run mine!

Mike
Try growing plants under 700 lux of lights or use lamps that provide 100,000 lumens of violet wavelength light. Let me know your results. :)
To avow that lux or PAR is not important is doing a disservice to people who may not know better.

Again, no animosity. Just a difference in opinion, beliefs and experiences.

Mike
Let us first focus on PAR, shall we?

You apparently think the data I'm giving is "magical" or whatever. I too rely on science.
Fact. when measuring PAR there's no distinction between the different wavelengths used by plants.
Fact. different wavelengths result in different levels of photosynthetic activity, which means different levels of energy.
Fact. different wavelengths encourage different types of growth in plants, due to the fact the use of energy is mainly determined by the color of light they're getting.
Fact. both Chlorophyll a (the main pigment in both quantity and energy converted) and the Carotenoids absorb violet light.

In the past seven (7) months I've been testing different light sources (LEDs, CFLs, HIDs and several more), and within those different "groups" I compared the use of different wavelengths and overall light temperature.
When providing enough lumens, even the least efficient wavelengths showed growth. while red and blue separated did show growth, none of them showed the same healthy growth the plants getting a wider spectrum showed. it is important to say the results were somewhat identical in every other light source (when considering the variables). bulbs were compared to an equivalent bulb with the same wattage consumption and different spectrum.

Science tells us that providing 20W of a wavelengths providing only 20% of the photosynthetic activity is not as good as a 10W of wavelengths providing 80% of the photosynthetic activity.
Wattage efficiency is definitely not the main factor. just look at LEDs.

The general term of PAR is not important. the actual wavelengths are.

Now let us move to Lux.

Just to make things clear, Lux is unit measuring illuminance or how much visible light there is per square meter.
When using bulbs besides placing the bulb right on top the plants, there's nothing else you can do to increase Lux. for that reason alone, Lux is not important when growing with bulbs.
There isn't a certain amount of Lux required by the plant to do anything.
More of a certain light will be better, but not necessary. the same principal is what makes a 50W bulb better than an equivalent 25W. same with 400W, 600W, 1000W etc.
Like I already mentioned above:
Science tells us that providing 20W of a wavelengths providing only 20% of the photosynthetic activity is not as good as a 10W of wavelengths providing 80% of the photosynthetic activity.
Wattage efficiency is definitely not the main factor. just look at LEDs.
First you need to make sure you have the right wavelengths, only then worry abut if you have enough of them.

A good HID could easily provide more Lux than a not so sunny day, but the sun will still be better. why? because of the wide spectrum.
Giving a plant a lot of the wrong wavelength, won't make it healthier.

Lux is really not something you should be worrying about when growing with bulbs. therefor Lux is not important.


Mike, I like our little discussions and I already made peace with the fact you're confident you're right. :)

[alawn]

Here are the results from a cool experiment someone did using lots of very high power red and blue leds with an intensity dial for each color to see what happened with different wavelengths. It was done with pepper plants.

1. Growing with the blues turned all the way up and reds somewhat turned down produced real stalky bushy plants that I like.

2. When lowering the blue intensity and cranking up the red, flowers appear real quickly (the very next day)

3. After flowers appeared and opened they dropped when I left the red up and blue turned down

4. As an experiment, I once again turned the blue way up and red down a little, plants went somewhat back to veg stage with very few flowers/buds

5. I then lowered the blue and cranked up the red and lots of buds and flowers appeared again.

6. However, this time once the flowers started opening, I raised the blue back up to highest level as opposed to leaving it down. Voila - I now have peppers fruiting. It seems once the flower stage was reached, going back to strong blue is helping the flowers turn to peppers.

[pepperfever]

Oh my, pepper envy. Those plants look so good, can't wait until it's planting time here. Great pics. Jackie