bottling/shipping 101

[staffing]

I've had a couple of people express interest in trying my recent sauce. I would like to oblige. Since I am not a manufacturer, and don't have bottling equipment, etc. (and, since I'm not going into the business, I don't want to acquire said equipment) do any of you on the supply side of hot sauce have an idea of what would be the best way to pack/ship a small amount (a couple of oz.s) of this sauce?

I'd hate to ship it, only to have the person on the receiving end open up a mess (not to mention the unsuspecting postal worker, who might get some on his/her hands :shock:

I'd appreciate your advice.

Josh

[sweatnspice]

Josh - On the shipping side of things, take care to ensure that each bottle is well wrapped in bubble wrap and the box is filled with packing material (packing peanuts). That's about it, just make sure to throw a few fragile stickers on it.

Tip: If you shake the box and can hear things rattling around, then you need to re-pack with more filler material.

[thehotpepper.com]

Moved to Bottling forum.

[DEFCON Creator]

I'll go along with Sweat on this one, just make sure nothing moves inside the box. When we ship our stuff out, the packaging is nearly radiation-proof. The stuff inside has no chance of movement at all.

As for the "Fragile" stickers, I'd shy away from those. I worked at UPS for 10 years, and saw numerous times where a "Fragile" box would hit the line, and it was given far worse treatment than an unmarked box. Trust me on that one.

[staffing]

I'll go along with Sweat on this one, just make sure nothing moves inside the box. When we ship our stuff out, the packaging is nearly radiation-proof. The stuff inside has no chance of movement at all.

As for the "Fragile" stickers, I'd shy away from those. I worked at UPS for 10 years, and saw numerous times where a "Fragile" box would hit the line, and it was given far worse treatment than an unmarked box. Trust me on that one.

Thanks for your input, guys.

Josh

[sweatnspice]

Defcon - Agreed about the shipping company treating packages a bit worse if there are fragile labels on, however we still slap them on for the customers peace of mind.

[DEFCON Creator]

That's cool, we kinda gave up on it, the things I've seen done with 'fragile' boxes has been scarred into my cranial tissue. :shock:

[Tina Brooks]

I'll go along with Sweat on this one, just make sure nothing moves inside the box. When we ship our stuff out, the packaging is nearly radiation-proof. The stuff inside has no chance of movement at all.

As for the "Fragile" stickers, I'd shy away from those. I worked at UPS for 10 years, and saw numerous times where a "Fragile" box would hit the line, and it was given far worse treatment than an unmarked box. Trust me on that one.

Thanks for your input, guys.

Josh

Hi Josh,

As you know, we don't use bubble wrap or packing peanuts unless we're recycling them from a shipment that we received. We simply use tons of shredded paper.

The most important thing is that NOTHING MOVE in shipping.

As for the bottling... From what I know, (there are exceptions -- like Peppermaster) but mostly, the makers simply hot fill their woozey bottles, cap them, shrink wrap the tops and ship. We bain marie (hot bath) ours. But you probably don't need to do that.

Good luck man.

T.

[staffing]

I'll go along with Sweat on this one, just make sure nothing moves inside the box. When we ship our stuff out, the packaging is nearly radiation-proof. The stuff inside has no chance of movement at all.

As for the "Fragile" stickers, I'd shy away from those. I worked at UPS for 10 years, and saw numerous times where a "Fragile" box would hit the line, and it was given far worse treatment than an unmarked box. Trust me on that one.

Thanks for your input, guys.

Josh

Hi Josh,

As you know, we don't use bubble wrap or packing peanuts unless we're recycling them from a shipment that we received. We simply use tons of shredded paper.

The most important thing is that NOTHING MOVE in shipping.

As for the bottling... From what I know, (there are exceptions -- like Peppermaster) but mostly, the makers simply hot fill their woozey bottles, cap them, shrink wrap the tops and ship. We bain marie (hot bath) ours. But you probably don't need to do that.

Good luck man.

T.

As always, thanks for your advice, Tina. My problem is in trying to figure out what kind of container to use to ship it. I don't have bottling/canning equipment. I guess I can use a canning jar (mason, etc.). I know I have to seal it while hot. I just wondered if there was an easier way to ship a small amt., like, say, a couple of ounces, since I don't have that much. I guess I can take an empty hot sauce bottle (after thoroughly washing it, of course) and tape it up real tight, but I'm not sure that will work. Any advice would be appreciated.

Josh

[DEFCON Creator]

Well, hot bottling (anything over 190 degrees should suffice) works great, just make sure you have a good seal on the inside of the cap, and tighten down very well. That should do very well. You saw our bottles, the wax on top solves any remaining problems with sealage (is that a word?).

[Tina Brooks]

I'll go along with Sweat on this one, just make sure nothing moves inside the box. When we ship our stuff out, the packaging is nearly radiation-proof. The stuff inside has no chance of movement at all.

As for the "Fragile" stickers, I'd shy away from those. I worked at UPS for 10 years, and saw numerous times where a "Fragile" box would hit the line, and it was given far worse treatment than an unmarked box. Trust me on that one.

Thanks for your input, guys.

Josh


Hi Josh,

As you know, we don't use bubble wrap or packing peanuts unless we're recycling them from a shipment that we received. We simply use tons of shredded paper.

The most important thing is that NOTHING MOVE in shipping.

As for the bottling... From what I know, (there are exceptions -- like Peppermaster) but mostly, the makers simply hot fill their woozey bottles, cap them, shrink wrap the tops and ship. We bain marie (hot bath) ours. But you probably don't need to do that.

Good luck man.

T.

As always, thanks for your advice, Tina. My problem is in trying to figure out what kind of container to use to ship it. I don't have bottling/canning equipment. I guess I can use a canning jar (mason, etc.). I know I have to seal it while hot. I just wondered if there was an easier way to ship a small amt., like, say, a couple of ounces, since I don't have that much. I guess I can take an empty hot sauce bottle (after thoroughly washing it, of course) and tape it up real tight, but I'm not sure that will work. Any advice would be appreciated.

Josh


Hey Josh,

Not to worry about it so much. After all, so long as nobody that you send it to is under the mistaken idea that your sauce is for commercial sale, pretend you're sending a jar to your cousin Fred. (Ok, so you don't have a cousin friend... pretend you do).

PROFESSIONAL DISCLAIMER... THE FOLLOWING APPLIES ONLY TO JOSH'S QUESTION AND IS NOT TO BE MISTAKEN FOR PROFESSIONAL ADVICE.

That said, if it were me, I'd sterilize the hot sauce bottle, you can do that the way they used to do baby bottles in the 50s and 60s... submerge them in boiling water for 5 minutes.

Then hot fill them and cap them. If you feel safer wrap the lid in plastic wrap, maybe some duct tape. But I'll be surprised if the cap would leak. You can pre-test it by filling the bottle with water. Then put a sticker on the bottle that says something along the lines of "private stock, not for sale or resale" and then drop the bottle into a tight pack of shredded paper or bubble wrap and peanuts, etc. ship away.

You're not crossing international boundaries (unless you decide to send me a bottle) so, it's not a big deal.

T.

[DEFCON Creator]

Josh[/quote]
Then hot fill them and cap them. If you feel safer wrap the lid in plastic wrap, maybe some duct tape.
T.[/quote]

Packaging with duct tape? Is that some sort of "North of the border thing" I should know of? :lol:

[Tina Brooks]

Josh
Then hot fill them and cap them. If you feel safer wrap the lid in plastic wrap, maybe some duct tape.
T.[/quote]

Packaging with duct tape? Is that some sort of "North of the border thing" I should know of? :lol:[/quote]

Duct tape? You don't know about Duct Tape??

It's most definitely a North of the Border thing, lol

Duct Tape: ala The Red Green Show. (http://www.redgreen.com)

[staffing]

Josh
Then hot fill them and cap them. If you feel safer wrap the lid in plastic wrap, maybe some duct tape.
T.[/quote]

Packaging with duct tape? Is that some sort of "North of the border thing" I should know of? :lol:[/quote]

Actually, here in Southern Appalachia, we do all kinds of things with duct tape. It's a way of life around here. As long as you have duct tape, baling wire, and a staple gun....look out!

:lol:

Josh

[Tina Brooks]

Josh
Then hot fill them and cap them. If you feel safer wrap the lid in plastic wrap, maybe some duct tape.
T.

Packaging with duct tape? Is that some sort of "North of the border thing" I should know of? :lol:[/quote]

Actually, here in Southern Appalachia, we do all kinds of things with duct tape. It's a way of life around here. As long as you have duct tape, baling wire, and a staple gun....look out!

:lol:

Josh[/quote]

You use baling wire, we use paper clips.

T

[DEFCON Creator]

Interesting,
Here in Jersey, we dredge mercury out of a local pharmaceutical catch basin and mix it with PCB's from the the tailings pond of a plastics conglomerate. It produces a nice little wax-like substance that not only glows in the dark, it'll microwave your food from 3 feet away.

Pretty cool, huh?

[Tina Brooks]

Interesting,
Here in Jersey, we dredge mercury out of a local pharmaceutical catch basin and mix it with PCB's from the the tailings pond of a plastics conglomerate. It produces a nice little wax-like substance that not only glows in the dark, it'll microwave your food from 3 feet away.

Pretty cool, huh?

Now you know, I know you're joking!

I hope!

[staffing]

Josh
Then hot fill them and cap them. If you feel safer wrap the lid in plastic wrap, maybe some duct tape.
T.

Packaging with duct tape? Is that some sort of "North of the border thing" I should know of? :lol:

Actually, here in Southern Appalachia, we do all kinds of things with duct tape. It's a way of life around here. As long as you have duct tape, baling wire, and a staple gun....look out!

:lol:





Josh[/quote]

You use baling wire, we use paper clips.

T[/quote]

Paper clips? Either we have bigger problems down here, or bigger solutions!! :lol:

[staffing]

Interesting,
Here in Jersey, we dredge mercury out of a local pharmaceutical catch basin and mix it with PCB's from the the tailings pond of a plastics conglomerate. It produces a nice little wax-like substance that not only glows in the dark, it'll microwave your food from 3 feet away.

Pretty cool, huh?

Josh <looking suspiciously at the wax sealant on his bottle of DEFCON 0, wondering if it glows in the dark>

LOL!!!!

[DEFCON Creator]

I'd be a little more worried about what's inside the little blue bottle, than the sealant. I made sure we got a good mix of oil and crystal in that little critter. Give it a good shake to get the crystals moving around, and once again, just make sure you don't get it on your hands.

[staffing]

I'd be a little more worried about what's inside the little blue bottle, than the sealant. I made sure we got a good mix of oil and crystal in that little critter. Give it a good shake to get the crystals moving around, and once again, just make sure you don't get it on your hands.

Don't worry. I've learned from experience. I treat all extract sauces with respect.

[DEFCON Creator]

That's cool (no pun intended). The ZERO however is not a sauce, it's just 'the' extract. We are currently working on a NEGATIVE 1 one extract, that should be exponentially hotter than the ZERO, but it's still in the works. Not to mention since I personally sample each prototype, I need a day or two to get the tastebuds to regenerate. :shock:

[Tina Brooks]

That's cool (no pun intended). The ZERO however is not a sauce, it's just 'the' extract. We are currently working on a NEGATIVE 1 one extract, that should be exponentially hotter than the ZERO, but it's still in the works. Not to mention since I personally sample each prototype, I need a day or two to get the tastebuds to regenerate. :shock:

You know, tastebud generation with my sauces takes a maximum of 20 minutes.

You guys are dangerous!

[DEFCON Creator]

My wife gets a personal thrill from watching me writhe in pain. You should see it when I make my homemade horseradish. I wear a scuba mask and have the regulator in my mouth hooked up to the nitrox cylinder. Our neighbors must think we have a meth lab. :lol:

[Tina Brooks]

My wife gets a personal thrill from watching me writhe in pain. You should see it when I make my homemade horseradish. I wear a scuba mask and have the regulator in my mouth hooked up to the nitrox cylinder. Our neighbors must think we have a meth lab. :lol:

No doubt!

LMAO

And here, they all walk by licking their lips wondering what that delectable smell is!

Although, I've thought of using the scuba gear myself when the Peppermaster is cooking down the habs. lol

[DEFCON Creator]

You're gonna love this one. A buddy of mine, who's a Yankee fan went to one of the playoff home games in NY last season. I gave him a small bottle of the #1 sauce. He bought a bunch of Red Sox clothing, so he could fit in with the Boston crowd. He was wearing batting gloves, and put the #1 sauce all over them, and proceeded to shake hands to as many Boston fans as he could. He revelled in his glory watching the capsaicin-infected fans all high fived each other, and then broke into tears like they got maced. Gotta love capsaicin, Mother Nature's all-purpose tear-jerker. :twisted:

[Tina Brooks]

You're gonna love this one. A buddy of mine, who's a Yankee fan went to one of the playoff home games in NY last season. I gave him a small bottle of the #1 sauce. He bought a bunch of Red Sox clothing, so he could fit in with the Boston crowd. He was wearing batting gloves, and put the #1 sauce all over them, and proceeded to shake hands to as many Boston fans as he could. He revelled in his glory watching the capsaicin-infected fans all high fived each other, and then broke into tears like they got maced. Gotta love capsaicin, Mother Nature's all-purpose tear-jerker. :twisted:

You should be careful telling that story, especially with the CIA so keen on hunting down terrorists these days. lol

hehe, you are baaad.

T

[staffing]

You're gonna love this one. A buddy of mine, who's a Yankee fan went to one of the playoff home games in NY last season. I gave him a small bottle of the #1 sauce. He bought a bunch of Red Sox clothing, so he could fit in with the Boston crowd. He was wearing batting gloves, and put the #1 sauce all over them, and proceeded to shake hands to as many Boston fans as he could. He revelled in his glory watching the capsaicin-infected fans all high fived each other, and then broke into tears like they got maced. Gotta love capsaicin, Mother Nature's all-purpose tear-jerker. :twisted:

You should be careful telling that story, especially with the CIA so keen on hunting down terrorists these days. lol

Tina, if I'm not mistaken, he is the govt. Am I right, Defcon? Man, that's a gutsy prank to pull. So the DEFCON 0 is pure extract? Thanks for the heads-up. I understand about the scuba gear. When I made my hot sauces, the fumes can get overwhelming.

hehe, you are baaad.

T

[DEFCON Creator]

I wouldn't say i -am- the government, that would be taking way to much credit. As for the prank, I laughed my *** off when he told me what he did. I may not be much of a baseball fan, but that was definitely funny.

As for the ZERO, yeah, it the 'white lightning' extract we spoke of. Just wait until the NEGATIVE 1 comes around. I may cut the non-taste (if that's possible), with something interesting like wasabi or fermented horseradish. Stay tuned...

[Tina Brooks]

I wouldn't say i -am- the government, that would be taking way to much credit. As for the prank, I laughed my *** off when he told me what he did. I may not be much of a baseball fan, but that was definitely funny.

As for the ZERO, yeah, it the 'white lightning' extract we spoke of. Just wait until the NEGATIVE 1 comes around. I may cut the non-taste (if that's possible), with something interesting like wasabi or fermented horseradish. Stay tuned...

Ok if saying you am the government is "taking too much" credit... what would be taking just the right amount of credit??? :?

[DEFCON Creator]

I do take credit, but usually in the form of a foreclosure or forced bankruptcy. Is that what you meant? :wink:

[Tina Brooks]

I do take credit, but usually in the form of a foreclosure or forced bankruptcy. Is that what you meant? :wink:

You're not military, you're a government official???

[DEFCON Creator]

Neither, but both. Ahhhh, the plesantries of riddles. :lol:

[Tina Brooks]

Neither, but both. Ahhhh, the plesantries of riddles. :lol:

That's not a riddle, it's an enigma... fill in the blanks and quit being a Bush, oops, I mean, beating around the Bush.

[DEFCON Creator]

I truly enjoy cryptic verbal sparring, but please Tina, no politics. :evil:

[Tina Brooks]

I truly enjoy cryptic verbal sparring, but please Tina, no politics. :evil:

Aw, you're just saying that because you're a republican.

Lessee... Neither military nor Government, but both... You're either a JAG or CIA.

Am I getting warm?

[DEFCON Creator]

Actually, I'm saying that because current bashers seem to need more and more platforms to express their politcal beliefs, due to the fact that no one will listen to their nonsensicle ramblings anywhere else, I wish to see this forum stay politic-free, as there are plenty of other places to spout rhetoric besides a haven where we can just discuss the pepper.

As for my profession, you're lukewarm. Ahhh, this is fun.

[Tina Brooks]

Actually, I'm saying that because current bashers seem to need more and more platforms to express their politcal beliefs, due to the fact that no one will listen to their nonsensicle ramblings anywhere else, I wish to see this forum stay politic-free, as there are plenty of other places to spout rhetoric besides a haven where we can just discuss the pepper.

As for my profession, you're lukewarm. Ahhh, this is fun.

So, if not here, then where do you talk politics??? I'm thinking you'd make a great opponent in the right forum; politically speaking that is. But we'll leave that for the other venue.

You're a Fibbie? I'm thinking that for sure you are a retired serviceman... Let me guess, marines? So maybe what you are is a Commissionnaire?

[DEFCON Creator]

I discuss politics in person only. Many are tired from the constant barrage of mindless political banter that has all but taken over nearly everywhere. If you wish to discuss politics, please go to one of the many mindless posting/chat forums that exist for the sole reason to let the people who lost the election whine about how horrible it is, and blame the current administration for everything. Let them whine, perhaps they'll move too (and this time, take Alec Baldwin with you).

Anyway, retired? At 40? Nope, try again. Here's a subtle hint...Some of my work is done underwater.

[bubbaschili]

porn star?

[fatalliman]

Plumber?

[staffing]

I discuss politics in person only. Many are tired from the constant barrage of mindless political banter that has all but taken over nearly everywhere. If you wish to discuss politics, please go to one of the many mindless posting/chat forums that exist for the sole reason to let the people who lost the election whine about how horrible it is, and blame the current administration for everything. Let them whine, perhaps they'll move too (and this time, take Alec Baldwin with you).

Anyway, retired? At 40? Nope, try again. Here's a subtle hint...Some of my work is done underwater.

Should I spoil their fun? Of course, I am assuming (I know, I know...) that I have it correctly. You haven't exactly been cryptic about it in other posts. I seem to recall several references to your line of work. But I'll leave it to others to figure it out. This is kind of your revenge for the "how to include people's quotes in your post" cracks that you received.

I'll keep quiet. :D

[bubbaschili]

is your job the person that puts inspected by number 3 in all the underwear?

[Tina Brooks]

I discuss politics in person only. Many are tired from the constant barrage of mindless political banter that has all but taken over nearly everywhere. If you wish to discuss politics, please go to one of the many mindless posting/chat forums that exist for the sole reason to let the people who lost the election whine about how horrible it is, and blame the current administration for everything. Let them whine, perhaps they'll move too (and this time, take Alec Baldwin with you).

Anyway, retired? At 40? Nope, try again. Here's a subtle hint...Some of my work is done underwater.

LOL, Alec Baldwin? We don't want him either!

Ok, so not retired and some of your work is done underwater...

Not a JAG, you can't be a Navy Seal, that would make you military but if you are a municipal sewage diver, that would fit... Assuming the "government" reference is municipal government...

There... ok, municipal navy seal trained sewage diver?

Am I getting close?

[Tina Brooks]

I discuss politics in person only. Many are tired from the constant barrage of mindless political banter that has all but taken over nearly everywhere. If you wish to discuss politics, please go to one of the many mindless posting/chat forums that exist for the sole reason to let the people who lost the election whine about how horrible it is, and blame the current administration for everything. Let them whine, perhaps they'll move too (and this time, take Alec Baldwin with you).

Anyway, retired? At 40? Nope, try again. Here's a subtle hint...Some of my work is done underwater.

Should I spoil their fun? Of course, I am assuming (I know, I know...) that I have it correctly. You haven't exactly been cryptic about it in other posts. I seem to recall several references to your line of work. But I'll leave it to others to figure it out. This is kind of your revenge for the "how to include people's quotes in your post" cracks that you received.

I'll keep quiet. :D

NO! Don't spoil it, this is fun!

[bubbaschili]

I GOT IT I GOT IT...YOU SIT IN A TUB OF WATER AND PUT COTTON IN THE TOP OF ASPRIN BOTTLES ALL DAY.

[staffing]

I GOT IT I GOT IT...YOU SIT IN A TUB OF WATER AND PUT COTTON IN THE TOP OF ASPRIN BOTTLES ALL DAY.

You might not want to get too insulting....particularly when you figure out what he does for a living.... :o

Of course, knowing my luck, I'll have it all wrong, and I'll end up looking the fool.....won't be the first time....nor the last...

[Tina Brooks]

I GOT IT I GOT IT...YOU SIT IN A TUB OF WATER AND PUT COTTON IN THE TOP OF ASPRIN BOTTLES ALL DAY.

Ok, that's it, Bubba, step away from the copy machine! The fumes have gone to your head.

[Tina Brooks]

I GOT IT I GOT IT...YOU SIT IN A TUB OF WATER AND PUT COTTON IN THE TOP OF ASPRIN BOTTLES ALL DAY.

You might not want to get too insulting....particularly when you figure out what he does for a living.... :o

Of course, knowing my luck, I'll have it all wrong, and I'll end up looking the fool.....won't be the first time....nor the last...

Oh wait... so YOU don't actually KNOW either... lol... how far off do YOU think I am???

[staffing]

I GOT IT I GOT IT...YOU SIT IN A TUB OF WATER AND PUT COTTON IN THE TOP OF ASPRIN BOTTLES ALL DAY.

You might not want to get too insulting....particularly when you figure out what he does for a living.... :o

Of course, knowing my luck, I'll have it all wrong, and I'll end up looking the fool.....won't be the first time....nor the last...

Oh wait... so YOU don't actually KNOW either... lol... how far off do YOU think I am???


Absolutely? Nope. But I'm pretty sure. He's been generous with the clues in earlier posts on other topics. Might be more difficult for you to figure out, not being a local and knowing the slang.

[bubbaschili]

hopefuly he has a sence of hummor espeicaly after i guessed porn star

[DEFCON Creator]

This is really getting funny. Nope, not a sewage diver. It's not too cost effective to attempt a foreclosure on a storm drain. :lol:

[bubbaschili]

works in water...hmmmmmmmm seal trainer?

[DEFCON Creator]

Seal trainer. :lol:

Ummmm, nope.

[chuk hell]

This is really getting funny. Nope, not a sewage diver. It's not too cost effective to attempt a foreclosure on a storm drain. :lol:

Submarine repo man?

[fatalliman]

wasn't trying to be sarcastic

[DEFCON Creator]

Well, so far Chuk is the closest.

As for the bottle washer for Defcon, considering the company solely consists of me and my wife, we share the load equally. So much for the sarcasm, but nice attempt. :wink:

[Tina Brooks]

Well, so far Chuk is the closest.

As for the bottle washer for Defcon, considering the company solely consists of me and my wife, we share the load equally. So much for the sarcasm, but nice attempt. :wink:

Submarine Repo... hmmmm

I got it, I got it... You're DEA and you run cigarette boats just like in Miami Vice... wait a minute... You're in New Jersey, are you even near water????

Ok, serious guess: Repo man specializing in boats... although how that would put you under water, you'll have to explain.

[DEFCON Creator]

Now we're getting warm. We'll leave it at that. :wink:

[bubbaschili]

like george from sinefield your a marine biologist...pulling golf balls out of whales blow holes.

[DEFCON Creator]

He said blowhole (insert Beavis & Butthead laughter)

Sorry, couldn't resist. :roll:

[Tina Brooks]

Now we're getting warm. We'll leave it at that. :wink:

I suppose I'll settle for "close enough", but I'm curious... why so cryptic or is it because your "job" requires anonymity???

[DEFCON Creator]

To a small extent yeah. It's not like I'm an international espionage person, trust me.

[Tina Brooks]

To a small extent yeah. It's not like I'm an international espionage person, trust me.

Well we know that, the Fibbies and the CIA would have been onto you by now, after all, they watch me and who I talk to, very very closely. ;)

T

[DEFCON Creator]

Perhaps that's why they told me to become a member of this forum. :shock:

[bubbaschili]

I GOT IT I GOT IT....... WORKS IN WATER....THE NAME DEFCON.....I GOT IT I GOT IT...YOUR JOB IS TO ATTACH ATTOMIC BOMBS ON MARINE LIFE FOR THE GOVERMENT!! ITS OPERATION AQUA NUKE

[Tina Brooks]

I GOT IT I GOT IT....... WORKS IN WATER....THE NAME DEFCON.....I GOT IT I GOT IT...YOUR JOB IS TO ATTACH ATTOMIC BOMBS ON MARINE LIFE FOR THE GOVERMENT!! ITS OPERATION AQUA NUKE

lol

[Tina Brooks]

Perhaps that's why they told me to become a member of this forum. :shock:

Why dya think I keep wanting you to talk politics. :twisted:

[DEFCON Creator]

Damn, you're on to me! I was supposed to keep the Nudibranch Nuke project along with the Turtle Mine project a secret. :lol: