Extract Sauces are blarrrrghhhhh!

[The Iron Tongue]

As in vomit!

I tried Mad Dog 357 SE, Jersey Death and Talon the other night. (Full reviews soon)

Man That chemical metallic taste is horrible! Like I was eating tin foil.

It was so bad I was almost to the point of heaving! I was foolish enough to have some Talon, let the heat build up for a few seconds then add some Jersey Death and then the Mad dog 357. Man the burn was crazy, and none of the usual relievers seem to work for me!! Milk, Bread etc etc. so I had to deal with it. My limit was tested for about 10 mins or so. Afterwards came that high lol. In which I decided to try some more on some eggs. Mistake lol. that metallic taste was ever present. All I can say is that his stuff is hot, and although the Jersey Death has some hint of nice flavour, that extract taste ruins it.

Well tell a lie actually. Not all extract sauces I've tried are like this. Defcon 1 is the ruler for me! Creator make this stuff hotter but maintain the no extract taste!

I hate that taste so much I am actually considering not bothering trying/buying an extract sauce again (apart from Defcon 1, I want more Defcon 1 :) ).

My stomach was ok after this. I expected it to be twisting into knots lol. But (and excuse me for saying this) lets say going to the toilet was not the most pleasent experience lol.

So basically I didn't really like them lol.

The heat rocked! don't get me wrong. Possibly some of the hottest things I've to date. I think the Talon and Jersey Death have a nice flavour apart from the extract flavour. The Mad Dog 357 SE on the other hand I couldn't tell.

I will delve back into the realms of extract once more to provide an individual review of these 3 soonish.

Just thought I'd share my first thoughts on those 3 lol.

[tinner666]

What did you get into???:mouthonfire:

[The Iron Tongue]

Sorry hit the enter key after the first line lol.

Have edited the original post now with what I did/happened lol.

[huvason]

I agree for the most part about extract sauces - but Talon is no extract sauce. Just Red Savinas and Fatallis....

[chuk hell]

I agree with the general sentiment here....

...but yeah, Talon is not an extract sauce. Try it again without tainting your taste buds with that other crap.

[imaguitargod]

Oh, I've got alot to post on this one....but the 6 margaritas are starting to get to me.... http://bestsmileys.com/drinking/2.gif

[The Iron Tongue]

I will admit, that my experience with the Talon was probably tainted.

I do intend to try them all individually/properly.

I think out of the other two, the Mad Dog 357 SE was pretty nasty. Again, I'll need to go back and try it again to be sure.

[dreamtheatervt]

Defcon is the only exception to the extraction rule that I know of. I agree though, extract sauces aren't worth the money. I bought a few when I started getting into hot sauce, but most of them are just decoration now.

[The Iron Tongue]

Defcon is the only exception to the extraction rule that I know of. I agree though, extract sauces aren't worth the money. I bought a few when I started getting into hot sauce, but most of them are just decoration now.



I'll be honest.

Extract sauces (apart from Defcon 1) simply aren't very nice at all, going by those two. I don't think I'll be buying any more.

It's a shame as I like the burn. I like it a lot. But that taste! Don't think I could have that stuff on anything really. I will persevere with the two I have in order to do a review.

I will have to open the 3am also just for the burn. shame as I'll probably never use it again due to the taste :(

[walnut]

I will admit, that my experience with the Talon was probably tainted.

I do intend to try them all individually/properly.

I think out of the other two, the Mad Dog 357 SE was pretty nasty. Again, I'll need to go back and try it again to be sure.

You have to try the Talon by itself with a nice meal. You might also be tasting the fatalli itself.
as the Talon goes...The fatalli is very distinct and upfront rude pepper and some people don't like it... I would marry itit:shocked:

[huvason]

You have to try the Talon by itself with a nice meal. You might also be tasting the fatalli itself.
as the Talon goes...The fatalli is very distinct and upfront rude pepper and some people don't like it... I would marry itit:shocked:

Then try CaJohns Fatalli Fire!!!

[tinner666]

Never tried the Talon. Mad Dog 357 Se has a 'nasty' taste to be. Like burnt tire rubber or something. JD in food accents it. Try a couple spoonfuls or so in a crockpot of chili.

I've taken Sudden and Mega Death and added a spoon or 2 in a 'cereal' sized bowl of melted cheese and salsa. WHEN I get it just right, it's ALL flavor, then the heat kicks in about 2 minutes later. It comes on through the bloodstream creating a warm glow from head to foot!:onfire:


If you want a great dip, get Brooks Pepperfire Hurricane Mash.:mouthonfire:

[chilehunter]

I agree, though I havent tried as many as you guys here, but the ones I've tried (extract hot sauces) are nasty IMO, the flavor is just not there & its not even worth putting that extract sauce on my food, since that taste just ruins the meal :sick:

[DEFCON Creator]

I agree, though I havent tried as many as you guys here, but the ones I've tried (extract hot sauces) are nasty IMO, the flavor is just not there & its not even worth putting that extract sauce on my food, since that taste just ruins the meal :sick:

But as has been mentioned, not all extract sauces are alike. ;)

[walnut]

Then try CaJohns Fatalli Fire!!!

that's my favorite

[imaguitargod]

I totally agree with you. The metallic taste of keytone extracted capsacain is nasty. Really takes away from the flavor of the hot sauce. The only ones that are exeptions to this rule are Defcon Condition 1 and Zero, and EZ Earl's stuff. But that's because they don't use the keytones, they go a different (and more pain inducing on the creators of it) way with extraction.

[walnut]

I totally agree with you. The metallic taste of keytone extracted capsacain is nasty. Really takes away from the flavor of the hot sauce. The only ones that are exeptions to this rule are Defcon Condition 1 and Zero, and EZ Earl's stuff. But that's because they don't use the keytones, they go a different (and more pain inducing on the creators of it) way with extraction.

what do u mean by keytones?

[csigi_chili_sauce]

I agree! I don't understand the fascination with extract sauces! The taste is just a killer to whatever else is in the sauce. Hot is good :mouthonfire: , extract hot is awesome :onfire: , but that flavor... Blecchh!

Unfortunately, I tried the hottest Defcon last year, on the toothpick and I thought it tasted like extract.. Sorry bro.. ;) I just do not think that there is a way to make an extract sauce without the extract taste.

Although DEFCON is next to my buddy Amir from Green Bandit this year... Be nice creator! lol -Lars-

[imaguitargod]

Oh! Green Bandit! I've had one of his sauces! I like the ingredients (especially the Red Bell Peppers he uses).

I must dissagree with you on the Defcon Condition Zero however. EZ Earl and Defcon have been the cleanest tasting extracts that I've ever had. I would actually describe Condition Zero Batch #3 as "Cotton Candy-isy" in flavor, with a nice hint of hard alcohol.

[DEFCON Creator]

Although DEFCON is next to my buddy Amir from Green Bandit this year... Be nice creator! lol -Lars-

I'll be gentle. LOL! :lol:

[csigi_chili_sauce]

Oh! Green Bandit! I've had one of his sauces! I like the ingredients (especially the Red Bell Peppers he uses).

I must dissagree with you on the Defcon Condition Zero however. EZ Earl and Defcon have been the cleanest tasting extracts that I've ever had. I would actually describe Condition Zero Batch #3 as "Cotton Candy-isy" in flavor, with a nice hint of hard alcohol.

I think Amir has something new for the show this year. I know he's been refining his marinades though. I haven't tried them since last year, so when I stop by to see Amir, I'm going to have to do the toothpick test again at DEFCON! :onfire:

I don't think I've ever had a sauce that tasted like cotton candy! :lol: Although there is a first for everything!

I'll be gentle. LOL! :lol:

I'm curious about this new batch you are un-veiling Creator. I might have to get my hands on one of those 5mL pre-production bottles to try for myself.

This might be my last time online until I get to the Sandia. So I'll see you there! -Lars-

[Uncle Big]

There are two different kinds of extract used these days in the making of sauces.
Plainly put, there's cheap extract and a more Cadillac version of cap extracts.
The prices are drastically different and thus makes some manufacturers use the cheaper extract to keep costs down but the heat level high.
Defcon and myself, and, I will not speak for others here, but there are other sauce makers that, use the "good stuff" when we make our sauces.
Capsaicin is capsaicin, there are of course varying volumes of cap in different peppers (habanero of course most bang for the buck) and there are also different emulsifiers in which capsaicin can exist.
In my opinion, the main reason SOME extract sauces taste like crap is the emulsifier. The cheaper extracts can use ethanol, acetone and acetonitrile or a combination thereof whereas the more expensive type of cap extract will more than likely be a purer ethanol mix than the three tiered ethanol, acetone and acetonitrile emulsifier. If I'm using the wrong lingo, someone please feel free to correct me.
Extract can be made at home by anyone that is will to take the time and care (safety first people) quite easily. You can start making your own extract sauces, like I did, and you'll see the difference between the good stuff and the cheap stuff.
It is of course easier to get your hands on the cheaper grade extracts, but the good stuff is a little harder for the general public to get.
That's my two cents.

[csigi_chili_sauce]

There are two different kinds of extract used these days in the making of sauces.
Plainly put, there's cheap extract and a more Cadillac version of cap extracts.
The prices are drastically different and thus makes some manufacturers use the cheaper extract to keep costs down but the heat level high.
Defcon and myself, and, I will not speak for others here, but there are other sauce makers that, use the "good stuff" when we make our sauces.
Capsaicin is capsaicin, there are of course varying volumes of cap in different peppers (habanero of course most bang for the buck) and there are also different emulsifiers in which capsaicin can exist.
In my opinion, the main reason SOME extract sauces taste like crap is the emulsifier. The cheaper extracts can use ethanol, acetone and acetonitrile or a combination thereof whereas the more expensive type of cap extract will more than likely be a purer ethanol mix than the three tiered ethanol, acetone and acetonitrile emulsifier. If I'm using the wrong lingo, someone please feel free to correct me.
Extract can be made at home by anyone that is will to take the time and care (safety first people) quite easily. You can start making your own extract sauces, like I did, and you'll see the difference between the good stuff and the cheap stuff.
It is of course easier to get your hands on the cheaper grade extracts, but the good stuff is a little harder for the general public to get.
That's my two cents.

Now I understand why I am not a huge fan of extracts. Acetonitrile metabolizes into cyanide!!! :shocked:

I'm curious now what the manufacturers of extract use to remove the metabolizer!! :?:

Anyone know? I might have to ask at the show this weekend to see if I can get any answers.. -Lars-

[Uncle Big]

Now I understand why I am not a huge fan of extracts. Acetonitrile metabolizes into cyanide!!! :shocked:

I'm curious now what the manufacturers of extract use to remove the metabolizer!! :?:

Anyone know? I might have to ask at the show this weekend to see if I can get any answers.. -Lars-

Lars,
Most extracts use some form of ethanol or gain alcohol without the extract yummy bad things in it.
Talk to Creator at the show between beers or during beers or before beers, either way chat him up, he'll give you the straight poop and probably correct anything that was wrong in my post.
He is after all, the evil little scientist.

[dreamtheatervt]

Chemically speaking, it is nearly impossible to decompose acetonitrile into cyanide. In order to release a cyanide anion, you would need to generate a methyl cation...very nearly impossible, especially in vivo. Acetonitrile tastes nasty. It's a good SN2 solvent I use often in my work, and I've dealt with it enough (read: absorbed through skin) that if is was metabolized in vivo, I'd probably be dead.

To answer the other question; ethanol, acetone, and acetonitrile can all be removed (mostly) by vacuum distillation. They all from azeotropes (mixtures that can't be purified by distillation) with water which is present due to the vinegar/juice/vegetable matter. The fact that it forms an azeotrope is what makes it impossible to remove, not a lack of care by the producer. There are ways of dealing with azeotropes, but they would be cost prohibative for the food industry.

[DEFCON Creator]

Talk to Creator at the show between beers or during beers or before beers. He is after all, the evil little scientist.

Before beers? I wasn't aware that was part of my time-space continuum. :shocked:

[csigi_chili_sauce]

Chemically speaking, it is nearly impossible to decompose acetonitrile into cyanide.

I don't know about that one. According to this website...

http://www.atmos.umd.edu/~russ/MSDS/acetonitrile.htm

'Acetonitrile metabolizes into cyanide over 2 to 8 hours, so symptoms or signs of toxicity may be delayed after significant exposures.'

By the way, it seems that you have a back round in chemistry.

Are you a food chemist of sorts? Or were you just really good in chemistry in school.. lol

I ask because chemistry was my WORST subject back in school! :lol: -Lars-

[dreamtheatervt]

By the way, it seems that you have a back round in chemistry.


Uh, you could say that :lol:

I teach Synthetic Techniques in Organic Chemistry at Virginia Tech while working on my Ph.D. in organic & polymer chemistry.

As for acetonitrile metabolism, I very well could have been wrong. But quoting from the same source, "Effects of overexposure are often delayed, possibly due to the slow formation of cyanide anions in the body."

So it becomes a race between metabolizing it and simply removing it with the rest of the toxins your body generates (urination). Between the fact that there probably isn't a large amount of residual acetonitrile in extracts, only a fraction of that amount will be metabolized, and cyanide isn't a long term cummulative poison makes it safe to use extract sauces. I don't use extract sauces, but I figured I'd offer some peace of mind to those who do.

[csigi_chili_sauce]

Uh, you could say that :lol:

I teach Synthetic Techniques in Organic Chemistry at Virginia Tech while working on my Ph.D. in organic & polymer chemistry.

As for acetonitrile metabolism, I very well could have been wrong. But quoting from the same source, "Effects of overexposure are often delayed, possibly due to the slow formation of cyanide anions in the body."

So it becomes a race between metabolizing it and simply removing it with the rest of the toxins your body generates (urination). Between the fact that there probably isn't a large amount of residual acetonitrile in extracts, only a fraction of that amount will be metabolized, and cyanide isn't a long term cummulative poison makes it safe to use extract sauces. I don't use extract sauces, but I figured I'd offer some peace of mind to those who do.

Awesome! Thanks for the response man. I hope that my first response didn't come across too much like a dcik.. I was just curious about the process and after doing some checking I was kind of weirded out by what I was finding. That's why I'm also very curious about DEFCONS Zero...

I know John probably won't let out any secrets, but he must be doing 'something' different to remove any chemical extract flavor from his Zero. This is out of curiosity of course. I have no plans of making any sauces with the use of extract.

So John, if you are listening, what can you tell us about your process that is different than what others are doing? Unless it's a total trade secret I would understand you not wanting to talk about what you do. ;) -Lars-

[DEFCON Creator]

It's our own proprietary process. Kinda cool actually. Besides a few cold pressings and 4 different distillations, we utilize liquid CO2 to try to get more of the sugar away from our friendly capsaicin crystals. Its a completely manual process and NO machines of any kind use used to make it. It takes months to harvest the stuff, but I think what sets us apart from many of the other extracts out there is the fact we use only natural stuff to make it, unlike many extracts which use ketones and tend to have that bitter almost metallic taste. If we wanted to make 55 gallon drums of the stuff it just wouldn't be cost effective, hence the reason we only release little bottles of it a couple times per year. With the time and labor to make it, we really don't make much $ off of it, we just like to come up with really interesting packaging for it. Hell, our first releases (The Batch #1) are going for $500 now in private sales. Pretty cool.

[dreamtheatervt]

Sweet...I kinda figured supercritical CO2 was the way to go, I didn't know people were using it. Just don't breathe it on John, it's harsh. I really shouldn't play with my extra dry ice...but its fun; and making CO2 clouds is better than making HCl clouds (which I have done :shocked: )

[DEFCON Creator]

It has taken quite a bit of practice using the liquid CO2, as "accidents" are VERY easy to make, and not a lot of fun.

As for gases, I prefer chlorine, it's such a pretty shade of green.

[The Iron Tongue]

It has taken quite a bit of practice using the liquid CO2, as "accidents" are VERY easy to make, and not a lot of fun.



The T-1000 from Terminator 2 comes to mind :lol:

[DEFCON Creator]

I'm thinking more of the last 3 minutes of Dr. Strangelove.

[dreamtheatervt]

The T-1000 from Terminator 2 comes to mind :lol:

That was liquid nitrogen, which is -195 C. You can actually keep liquid CO2 at room temperature, provided it is under pressure.


Ah...Dr. Strangelove. Easily one of the 10 best movies ever made.

[The Iron Tongue]

That was liquid nitrogen, which is -195 C. You can actually keep liquid CO2 at room temperature, provided it is under pressure.



Well EXCUSE ME!! ;)



Dr Strangelove? Never seen it. Sounds like some odd adult movie lol.

[DEFCON Creator]

The BEST Kubrick movie ever made...Besides Clockwork Orange.

[csigi_chili_sauce]

The BEST Kubrick movie ever made...Besides Clockwork Orange.

Hey thanks John. So that's interesting that you make your extract much different than most others.. Kudos!

And yes, Kubrick was an effin' genius! Full Metal Jacket was a pretty good flick too! -Lars-

[DEFCON Creator]

So that's interesting that you make your extract much different than most others.

Why be normal?

[chilliman64]

yes - much better to be 'h'abnormal!

[DEFCON Creator]

Don't worry....Be Habby.

[csigi_chili_sauce]

Why be normal?

I agree dude! Most don't consider me to be normal, or right in the head. But eff 'em! I know that I'm totally sane! :mouthonfire: -Lars-

[E.Z. Earl]

I totally agree with you. The metallic taste of keytone extracted capsacain is nasty. Really takes away from the flavor of the hot sauce. The only ones that are exeptions to this rule are Defcon Condition 1 and Zero, and EZ Earl's stuff. But that's because they don't use the keytones, they go a different (and more pain inducing on the creators of it) way with extraction.

Thanks for the recognition of quality. That is a fetish of mine. However, unlike Defon's choice of direction on his small-batch of personally produced quality extrats, I knew I eventually needed quantities of quality extracts. So I opted to work with a supplier I used in the flavored coffee syrup business who is a craftsman on producing essential oil & essences from about any plant you can think of (ie: Stirling's Asian Rose syrup sold only in China). His firm produces a 3-chili blend of pepper oils and essences that I use. Primo stuff. The next step, however, is to build a sauce formula that is complex enough to showcase the extract heat without projecting any negative aspects of the ingredient. That's why my recipe contains 26 different ingredients. - E.Z.

[Blundaar]

What a great thread! I've learned so much today that I think I'll take the rest of the day off. Makes me very upset that I didn't order The Creator's 5ml 0-4 vial of death so I could roll around the floor and cry out, "Now that's a clean extract!".
Personally, I think Blair's Jersey Death is not nearly as bad as all that. Our sensitivity, by smell, to inferior extracts gives the impression of a sauce being worse than it actually is (from a taste standpoint, at any rate). Just my 2 cents.