Standardizing recipes

[AzJon]

Hey all,
 
I realized after posting a recipe in another thread, that it may not be the normal or best way to do it for standardization.
 
Are most recipes written, at least for production ore repeating a recipe, similar to baker's math? E.g. habanero 20%, Salt 5%, Vinegar 40%, etc?
 
Just curious your recipe building/tinkering techniques and didn't find anything readily searchable.

 

[luvmesump3pp3rz]

 
Neither do I, and that's the point. The recipe stays the same if its 30g of habaneros or 10000g of habaneros. What it does, is allows me to calculate the same ingredients at the proper ratios to recreate a recipe regarless the desired end amount.
 
As was noted, this is based off of Baker's Math which actually makes things very easy for scaling batches up and down. Hence why baker's use it. Lets you scale, fairly quickly, the mass of ingredients and their relative amounts within a recipe for a target production.
 
It could also be modified to pre-calculate approximate pH before I even make a recipe.
 
I don't need this recipe to make a quick hab hot sauce for the weekend with a few ingredients. I would like this if I was batching up from one bottle to 10,000.
 

i think if you are a baker and use their "math" and are used to it that is fine for you. you can do the same with grams. i literally never see recipes online that use percentages. if it works for you that`s great. the first response you got in this thread nailed it. best answer. i`m not trying to dis you but i couldn`t find 11.4 % on my measuring cup or on my scale. 

 

[AzJon]

i think if you are a baker and use their "math" and are used to it that is fine for you. you can do the same with grams. i literally never see recipes online that use percentages. if it works for you that`s great. the first response you got in this thread nailed it. best answer. i`m not trying to dis you but i couldn`t find 11.4 % on my measuring cup or on my scale. 

 
 
The biggest issue, to me, is that simply measuring by grams doesn't work for production. A recipe can end up with 12.5 bottles of product. That 1/2 bottle is just "waste".
 
So, let me see if I can explain.
 
If I have a recipe that is
 
200g peppers
 
300g vinegar
 
10g garlic
 
20g salt
 
Seasonings (1g each, but for simplicity, we won't measure).
 
That gives us a total of 530g. Maybe 535g after spices, but lets say 530g.
 
After cooking for 20 minutes and straining I get 1.5 bottles (just did this recipe this afternoon)
 
Well, for scaling to bottle size we have a problem. From 530g, I got one bottle that weighs (after taring) 150g. I'm losing about half my liquid volume in processing. Which is fine, but good to know.
 
So, my bottle has 150g of total product. Now I can scale up to 12 bottles, but the amounts from the recipe made 1.5 bottles. Instead of vague guestimates, I can convert to percentages.
 
The percentage should hold true regardless the mass. That means the end recipe give us:
 
Peppers 37.8%
 
Vinegar 56.6%
 
Garlic 1.9% (probably round off to 2%)
 
Salt. 3.8%
 
So, if I have a bottle that is 150g product, but I need to make 100 cases, or 1200 bottles, all I have to do to scale is:
 
1200 * 150 = 180,000
 
I need 180,000g product to fill 100 cases.
 
Ok, so I know my target amount. I can't just take 30g peppers and multiply that out because it nets me not-one-bottle of product.
 
So, 100 cases. When calculated out from percentage we get:
 
Peppers 68,040g
 
Vinegar 101,880g
 
Garlic 3,429g
 
Salt 6,840g
 
That should net me the correct mass of product to fill 1200 bottles after cooking.
 
You may not find it on your scale, and you may not agree with the method, but that's no reason to be continuously snide about it. If you have constructive criticism of the method, I would be happy to hear it and adjust the idea accordingly.
 
Admittedly, this does not account for evaporation rates due to cooking, absorption from spices, or loss from straining.
 
I welcome any critique that goes beyond "I can't measure a percentage" because you can, but choose not to.

 

[luvmesump3pp3rz]

 
 
The biggest issue, to me, is that simply measuring by grams doesn't work for production. A recipe can end up with 12.5 bottles of product. That 1/2 bottle is just "waste".
 
So, let me see if I can explain.
 
If I have a recipe that is
 
200g peppers
 
300g vinegar
 
10g garlic
 
20g salt
 
Seasonings (1g each, but for simplicity, we won't measure).
 
That gives us a total of 530g. Maybe 535g after spices, but lets say 530g.
 
After cooking for 20 minutes and straining I get 1.5 bottles (just did this recipe this afternoon)
 
Well, for scaling to bottle size we have a problem. From 530g, I got one bottle that weighs (after taring) 150g. I'm losing about half my liquid volume in processing. Which is fine, but good to know.
 
So, my bottle has 150g of total product. Now I can scale up to 12 bottles, but the amounts from the recipe made 1.5 bottles. Instead of vague guestimates, I can convert to percentages.
 
The percentage should hold true regardless the mass. That means the end recipe give us:
 
Peppers 37.8%
 
Vinegar 56.6%
 
Garlic 1.9% (probably round off to 2%)
 
Salt. 3.8%
 
So, if I have a bottle that is 150g product, but I need to make 100 cases, or 1200 bottles, all I have to do to scale is:
 
1200 * 150 = 180,000
 
I need 180,000g product to fill 100 cases.
 
Ok, so I know my target amount. I can't just take 30g peppers and multiply that out because it nets me not-one-bottle of product.
 
So, 100 cases. When calculated out from percentage we get:
 
Peppers 68,040g
 
Vinegar 101,880g
 
Garlic 3,429g
 
Salt 6,840g
 
That should net me the correct mass of product to fill 1200 bottles after cooking.
 
You may not find it on your scale, and you may not agree with the method, but that's no reason to be continuously snide about it. If you have constructive criticism of the method, I would be happy to hear it and adjust the idea accordingly.
 
Admittedly, this does not account for evaporation rates due to cooking, absorption from spices, or loss from straining.
 
I welcome any critique that goes beyond "I can't measure a percentage" because you can, but choose not to.

works for you but doesn't work for me. i did some pickling today and used measuring cups and and measuring spoons to follow the recipes i was using. sometimes i "wing it" and do what i think will work for me. you can keep using your percentages as you like if it makes you feel good.  

 

[Ashen]

You are making some assumptions on batch to batch consistency of ingredients.

Vinegar and salt are going to be rock solid consistent but the strength of flavour in the garlic or SHU and flavour in the peppers could vary fairly significantly. Also moisture content from the vegetable ingredients could effect consistency.

You can scale to an approximate but fine tuning will probably always have to be to taste.

Big food producers even go to the trouble of holding back a master sample from previous batches to compare to.


And just because reading the stuff about salt in this thread got the best of my pedantic urges.

All salt is technically sea salt. Either mined from ancient dried seabeds or evaporated from contemporary seawater.


Himalayan salt has less sodium than just about any other culinary salt but the difference is pretty negligible ,even to processed table salt. I do agree with the perception of it being saltier, which is mostly due to how it is often ground fairly fine from a salt mill . being fine it tends to hit more receptors but put up against similar amount of very fine popcorn salt the difference pretty much vanishes.

dissolved in water at a consistent ratio , salinity between culinary salts is indistinguishable.

I don't care how great a supertaster you are ,being able to distinguish flavour difference in salts dissolved like that is pretty much impossible as well.

Given time you might train yourself,but when dissolved the differences in flavour aren't what you expect.

Yes I have tried it and the only one I could somewhat consistently pick out was iodized table salt.

When dry the flavour perception differences are mainly down to crystal size ,shape , and how they dissolve in the food and tongue not the mineral content.




Oh and the mineral that makes pink salt pink?

Ferric oxide. I guess you can always lick a rusty grill grate to keep essential minerals up , if running low on pink salt .

 

[luvmesump3pp3rz]

 
 
The biggest issue, to me, is that simply measuring by grams doesn't work for production. A recipe can end up with 12.5 bottles of product. That 1/2 bottle is just "waste".
 
So, let me see if I can explain.
 
If I have a recipe that is
 
200g peppers
 
300g vinegar
 
10g garlic
 
20g salt
 
Seasonings (1g each, but for simplicity, we won't measure).
 
That gives us a total of 530g. Maybe 535g after spices, but lets say 530g.
 
After cooking for 20 minutes and straining I get 1.5 bottles (just did this recipe this afternoon)
 
Well, for scaling to bottle size we have a problem. From 530g, I got one bottle that weighs (after taring) 150g. I'm losing about half my liquid volume in processing. Which is fine, but good to know.
 
So, my bottle has 150g of total product. Now I can scale up to 12 bottles, but the amounts from the recipe made 1.5 bottles. Instead of vague guestimates, I can convert to percentages.
 
The percentage should hold true regardless the mass. That means the end recipe give us:
 
Peppers 37.8%
 
Vinegar 56.6%
 
Garlic 1.9% (probably round off to 2%)
 
Salt. 3.8%
 
So, if I have a bottle that is 150g product, but I need to make 100 cases, or 1200 bottles, all I have to do to scale is:
 
1200 * 150 = 180,000
 
I need 180,000g product to fill 100 cases.
 
Ok, so I know my target amount. I can't just take 30g peppers and multiply that out because it nets me not-one-bottle of product.
 
So, 100 cases. When calculated out from percentage we get:
 
Peppers 68,040g
 
Vinegar 101,880g
 
Garlic 3,429g
 
Salt 6,840g
 
That should net me the correct mass of product to fill 1200 bottles after cooking.
 
You may not find it on your scale, and you may not agree with the method, but that's no reason to be continuously snide about it. If you have constructive criticism of the method, I would be happy to hear it and adjust the idea accordingly.
 
Admittedly, this does not account for evaporation rates due to cooking, absorption from spices, or loss from straining.
 
I welcome any critique that goes beyond "I can't measure a percentage" because you can, but choose not to.

ok you win, you are better at math than me. have a good night.

 

[luvmesump3pp3rz]

You are making some assumptions on batch to batch consistency of ingredients.

Vinegar and salt are going to be rock solid consistent but the strength of flavour in the garlic or SHU and flavour in the peppers could vary fairly significantly. Also moisture content from the vegetable ingredients could effect consistency.

You can scale to an approximate but fine tuning will probably always have to be to taste.

Big food producers even go to the trouble of holding back a master sample from previous batches to compare to.


And just because reading the stuff about salt in this thread got the best of my pedantic urges.

All salt is technically sea salt. Either mined from ancient dried seabeds or evaporated from contemporary seawater.


Himalayan salt has less sodium than just about any other culinary salt but the difference is pretty negligible ,even to processed table salt. I do agree with the perception of it being saltier, which is mostly due to how it is often ground fairly fine from a salt mill . being fine it tends to hit more receptors but put up against similar amount of very fine popcorn salt the difference pretty much vanishes.

dissolved in water at a consistent ratio , salinity between culinary salts is indistinguishable.

I don't care how great a supertaster you are ,being able to distinguish flavour difference in salts dissolved like that is pretty much impossible as well.

Given time you might train yourself,but when dissolved the differences in flavour aren't what you expect.

Yes I have tried it and the only one I could somewhat consistently pick out was iodized table salt.

When dry the flavour perception differences are mainly down to crystal size ,shape , and how they dissolve in the food and tongue not the mineral content.




Oh and the mineral that makes pink salt pink?

Ferric oxide. I guess you can always lick a rusty grill grate to keep essential minerals up , if running low on pink salt .

this is enlightening info. thanks for posting. 

 

[AzJon]

You are making some assumptions on batch to batch consistency of ingredients.

Vinegar and salt are going to be rock solid consistent but the strength of flavour in the garlic or SHU and flavour in the peppers could vary fairly significantly. Also moisture content from the vegetable ingredients could effect consistency.

You can scale to an approximate but fine tuning will probably always have to be to taste.

Big food producers even go to the trouble of holding back a master sample from previous batches to compare to.

Thanks! I would actually be interested in hearing how larger producers end up accounting for batch consistency with pepper flavor. I would imagine the easiest way around that is to have a relationship with the grower directly, buy a huge lot, and plan on very large batches for sake of consistency. Basically make a thousand bottles in one go from the same material.
 
A master sample being held back also makes sense. I wonder if/how the flavor changes on a sample stored over a very long time. Perhaps they keep a sample after each matched batch?
 
Also, thanks for the salt comments. Totally true. The "all salt is sea salt" is a favorite line of my foodie brother in law.

 

[salsalady]

Something is not adding up ...   reply in caps but not meaning to YELL
 

 
 
The biggest issue, to me, is that simply measuring by grams doesn't work for production. A recipe can end up with 12.5 bottles of product. That 1/2 bottle is just "waste".
1/2 BOTTLE IS NOT A WASTE, GIVE AWAY, EAT IT YOURSELF, MAKE SURE ALL THE BOTTLES ARE TOPPED UP TO THE NECK RING, NO SHORT POURS.
 
So, let me see if I can explain.
 
If I have a recipe that is
 
200g peppers
 
300g vinegar
 
10g garlic
 
20g salt
 
Seasonings (1g each, but for simplicity, we won't measure).
 
That gives us a total of 530g. Maybe 535g after spices, but lets say 530g.
 
After cooking for 20 minutes and straining I get 1.5 bottles (just did this recipe this afternoon)
 
Well, for scaling to bottle size we have a problem. From 530g, I got one bottle that weighs (after taring) 150g. I'm losing about half my liquid volume in processing. Which is fine, but good to know.
 
So, my bottle has 150g of total product. Now I can scale up to 12 bottles, but the amounts from the recipe made 1.5 bottles. Instead of vague guestimates, I can convert to percentages.
1.5 BOTTLES X 8 = 12 BOTTLES
I'VE DONE SOME REALLY ODD CALCULATIONS LIKE MULTIPLYING THE ORIGINAL BATCH X 5.3 OR SOME OTHER ODDBALL NUMBER.  THERE WAS ONE INGREDIENT THAT THE ORIGINAL MEASUREMENT WAS (1 3/4 CUP OR SOMETHING), BUT TO SCALE UP THE RECIPE, THE BULK QUANTITY WAS A 2 GALLON CONTAINER.  DON'T GET STUCK ON MULTIPLYING BY EVEN NUMBERS.
 
The percentage should hold true regardless the mass. That means the end recipe give us:
 
Peppers 37.8%
 
Vinegar 56.6%
 
Garlic 1.9% (probably round off to 2%)
 
Salt. 3.8%
 
So, if I have a bottle that is 150g product, but I need to make 100 cases, or 1200 bottles, all I have to do to scale is:
 
1200 * 150 = 180,000
 
I need 180,000g product to fill 100 cases.
NO, THIS IS THE POST-COOKING VOLUME.   YOU NEED 530G X 1200=636,000 GRAMS OF RAW PRODUCT
 
Ok, so I know my target amount. I can't just take 30g peppers and multiply that out because it nets me not-one-bottle of product.
IF 30 GRAMS OF PEPPERS = 1.5 BOTTLES, THEN 20 GRAMS OF PEPPERS = 1 BOTTLE.  USE 2/3 OF EACH INGREDIENT TO EQUAL 1 BOTTLE, GO FROM THERE.
 
So, 100 cases. When calculated out from percentage we get:
 
Peppers 68,040g
240,408G
 
Vinegar 101,880g
359,976G
 
Garlic 3,429g
12,084G
 
Salt 6,840g
24,168G
 
That should net me the correct mass of product to fill 1200 bottles after cooking.
 
You may not find it on your scale, and you may not agree with the method, but that's no reason to be continuously snide about it. If you have constructive criticism of the method, I would be happy to hear it and adjust the idea accordingly.
 
Admittedly, this does not account for evaporation rates due to cooking, absorption from spices, or loss from straining.
 
I welcome any critique that goes beyond "I can't measure a percentage" because you can, but choose not to.

 

[AzJon]

Something is not adding up ...   reply in caps but not meaning to YELL
 

Looks like I'm bad at math, too.
 
I had not considered looking at the raw numbers as being 2/3 the total needed per bottle as the multiplier.
 
By the time I had typed all that up, I was well into a bottle of Writer's Tears whiskey and clearly not thinking straight. 

 

[Ashen]

Thanks! I would actually be interested in hearing how larger producers end up accounting for batch consistency with pepper flavor. I would imagine the easiest way around that is to have a relationship with the grower directly, buy a huge lot, and plan on very large batches for sake of consistency. Basically make a thousand bottles in one go from the same material.
 
A master sample being held back also makes sense. I wonder if/how the flavor changes on a sample stored over a very long time. Perhaps they keep a sample after each matched batch?
 
Also, thanks for the salt comments. Totally true. The "all salt is sea salt" is a favorite line of my foodie brother in law.

I am pretty sure you are right in some instances about after matching they just use that to compare going forward.

With Blended Scotch and even single malt distillers have master samples to match to so their product has a consistent profile. Not so much worry about it going off with alcohol though.

I was recently watching a show where Heinz does sample batch testing to a control in a plant that makes baked beans in the UK. Millions of cans a day if I remember right.

Two ladies who have worked there forever pull samples from the line three times a day and compare to a master. I imagine they just keep whichever ones are judged as perfect to Match to the next time.

 

[AzJon]

I am pretty sure you are right in some instances about after matching they just use that to compare going forward.

With Blended Scotch and even single malt distillers have master samples to match to so their product has a consistent profile. Not so much worry about it going off with alcohol though.

I was recently watching a show where Heinz does sample batch testing to a control in a plant that makes baked beans in the UK. Millions of cans a day if I remember right.

Two ladies who have worked there forever pull samples from the line three times a day and compare to a master. I imagine they just keep whichever ones are judged as perfect to Match to the next time.

I saw that show! It was amazing to think they do that as a job all day every day.

 

[salsalady]

Looks like I'm bad at math, too.
 
I had not considered looking at the raw numbers as being 2/3 the total needed per bottle as the multiplier.
 
By the time I had typed all that up, I was well into a bottle of Writer's Tears whiskey and clearly not thinking straight. 

  some of the best sauces have resulted from liberal doses of Liquid Inspiration. 
 
 
As far as consistency with flavor, as a small batch artisan sauce, small variations of color or consistency is to be expected. 
 
Some ways to combat inconsistencies is to use dried peppers or frozen peppers.  Don't cringe.... 
 
When peppers are in season, I dehydrate a bunch and I also grind up and freeze a bunch.  This allows for a more even distribution of flavor/heat/water content of all the peppers.  For freezing, I've done a couple hundred pounds at a time.  Wash, trim, run through the shredder plate of the RobotCoupe (continuous feed chopper) into a large bin.  Stir 'em all up and then package in zipper freezer bags.  If you have your recipe set, the bags can be 1 batch sized.  For example, one recipe I make calls for 1750g chiles.  So I bagged the chopped chiles at 1750 grams which fits nicely in a 1 gallon freezer bag.  That way, I could pull out one batch, 2 batches, whatever was needed. 
 
Same thing with dehydrated peppers.  Dry 'em, grind 'em, mix 'em all together.  Using dehydrated chiles may help on your cookdown time.
 

 

[AzJon]

  some of the best sauces have resulted from liberal doses of Liquid Inspiration. 
 
 
As far as consistency with flavor, as a small batch artisan sauce, small variations of color or consistency is to be expected. 
 
Some ways to combat inconsistencies is to use dried peppers or frozen peppers.  Don't cringe.... 
 
When peppers are in season, I dehydrate a bunch and I also grind up and freeze a bunch.  This allows for a more even distribution of flavor/heat/water content of all the peppers.  For freezing, I've done a couple hundred pounds at a time.  Wash, trim, run through the shredder plate of the RobotCoupe (continuous feed chopper) into a large bin.  Stir 'em all up and then package in zipper freezer bags.  If you have your recipe set, the bags can be 1 batch sized.  For example, one recipe I make calls for 1750g chiles.  So I bagged the chopped chiles at 1750 grams which fits nicely in a 1 gallon freezer bag.  That way, I could pull out one batch, 2 batches, whatever was needed. 
 
Same thing with dehydrated peppers.  Dry 'em, grind 'em, mix 'em all together.  Using dehydrated chiles may help on your cookdown time.
 

This kind of efficiency and standardizing makes me so happy.